Shoud NYC cops use revolers not autos?

[rajb123]

In a number of recent situatinns, the NYC police have used thier high capacity auto guns to end violent situations. In the most recent example outside of the Empire State building, 8 inocent people were injured by police .

Should police be better trained and should they use only revolvers not high capacity auiro guns?

 

[PabloJ]

In a number of recent situatinns, the NYC police have used thier high capacity auto guns to end violent situations. In the most recent example outside of the Empire State building, 8 inocent people were injured by police .

Should police be better trained and should they use only revolvers not high capacity auiro guns?

We live in very violent dangerous society so police must carry high cap autos. NYC police handled that situation correctly.

 

[Big D]

Until you yourself are in such a situation, you have no idea how stressful and how volatile and evolving they are. I do not know the details, but from what I was told about the incident, the officers fired at close range; some of the bullets could have very well exited the perp and continued on to injure someone else, as well as complete misses. When in that sort of situation, tunnel vision sets in, fine motor skills deteriorate, and everything goes to hell in a handbasket pretty quick. Even the best marksman in a police department can and will miss in a gunfight. It makes it even worse if innocent bystanders are in the line of fire of the perp or you.

 

[W.E.G.]

Is this the same topic that got locked at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=674313 ?

 

[bigfatdave]

yes, these and nothing else but these

 

[Bubba613]

Cops would be much better off with revolvers and good training than with large cap semi's and lousy training. But training is more expensive than guns.

 

[tomrkba]

Remember that NYPD has 40,000+ officers. Many of those officers do administrative work only. I think they are the vast majority. Also consider that most officers think the firearm is just something on their belt. They are not trained properly for gunfighting. They do not know how to shoot well but "qualify" according to department regulations. Most refuse extra training (so say my officer acquaintances in various large cities) and have absolutely no interest in the sort of training they need to improve their chances of success.

Yes, the NYPD needs to go back to revolvers. They need to THINK before doing. If they're not going to think, then the amount of damage they can inflict on uninvolved people needs to be minimized.

We live in very violent dangerous society so police must carry high cap autos. NYC police handled that situation correctly.

Not if they hit uninvolved people. You or I would go to jail for shooting anyone who didn't deserve it.

As for "a very dangerous society", I guess you have never been to, or read about crime, in South Africa or Sao Paulo. What we have here is paradise compared to most of the world.

 

[HKGuns]

Sounds like a training issue and not a firearm issue to me. Know your target and what is behind your target. Understanding penetration is also important.

However, it sounds like the cops shot more folks than the actual perp, kind of ironic and hard to pin on shoot throughs if 8 people were actually hit.

 

[Alec]

Nah. But they shouldn't have artificially heavy 12 lb triggers, for one thing.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I think departments should offer more training. I think LEOs should be able to carry whatever firearm they like if they don't care for the standard issue.

 

[barnbwt]

Cops would be much better off with revolvers and good training than with large cap semi's and lousy training. But training is more expensive than guns.

It would be even cheaper to just give them good training with their current large cap semi's instead of changing platforms again

You or I would go to jail for shooting anyone who didn't deserve it.

Damn right. I don't know where to start with the folks apologizing for the officers' (apparent) actions wounding so many nearby. What's worse was how slow that "little detail" leaked out into the press; how do you not know where the wounded were in relation to the police and murderer? They had us thinking this mass shooting was a citizan's mass shooting for a good half-day before the truth got out.

Understanding penetration is also important.

Not to start Caliber Wars or nothin', but it'll be interesting to see if those wounded were shot through the perp, and if the police were using heavier-caliber bullets because of underpenetration worries.

TCB

 

[BCRider]

Yes it IS a more dangerous world out there these days. It seems that a year can't go by without some looney deciding to make it onto the news by going on a murder spree as part of their suicide attempt.

So where's that leave the police? I'm sorry but since there is a very real chance that they will have to deal with one or more of this sort of situation during their career the training they get should reflect handling themselves decently under stress of this sort. Such things as realistic training scenarios using simunition and 360 degree firing lines would be a good start vs standing and shooting at static targets once or twice a year.

There are a whole lot of options that would train our officers to handle such stressful situations with more thought and if not calm at least not barely checked panic.

A while back while clearing some gun related items through our Customs I was chatting with the nice lady handling my Ebay slips. She asked me a few questions including how often I shot handguns. I replied "at least once a week at practices or matches" The "matches" got her asking about what sort they were. I suggested that she and a few buddys would be welcome to come out to our monthly Speed Steel events and how the other officers that attend them find they really help their shooting skills. Her reply was a quiet "I don't really like to shoot. I only shoot it when I have to practice to qualify".

Sadly this isn't an uncommon feeling among those that carry a gun as part of their job. In fact it's far more common than the officers or guards that enjoy shooting and see such practice as possibly saving their lives or the lives of their co-workers at some point.

Anyhow, sorry for the side track voyage.

As for any LEO's or other job related gun toting folks that answer this poll I'd suggest that they are going to be avid shooters anyway if they are reading this forum. So any results you get are certainly highly suspect as to validity within the LEO or other groups as a whole. In fact I'd say the deck is stacked to a crazy degree....

 

[Big D]

I'm suprised at all the LEO bashing thats goin on. I can't speak for everyone, but I do know that for the most part my department is squared away. I work for a PD in south Georgia, not some big city. Another thing people frequently forget is that all officers, no matter what kind of agency they work for, have to make split second decisions that everyone Monday morning quarterbacks them on....but hey we can handle it.

 

[One_Jackal]

NYPD did what they are trained to do in that situation. All they could do was stop the shooter and pray for the best.

 

[Lawdawg45]

In a number of recent situatinns, the NYC police have used thier high capacity auto guns to end violent situations. In the most recent example outside of the Empire State building, 8 inocent people were injured by police .

Should police be better trained and should they use only revolvers not high capacity auiro guns?

Here's the issue that the Monday morning quarterbacks fail to see. It was 9am in front of the Empire State Building and there were literally thousands of people on both sides of the street, the suspect was running and firing among the masses, were the Police to hide behind cover while civilians were being shot, or did they chance injuring innocents to stop the killing? Do we know for sure if the injured were hit by missed shots or did they run into the line of fire? Lot's of unanswered questions before we come down on the Officers............their 8 lb triggers do suck though!

LD

 

[tlmkr38]

While I won't argue that they police had to sto the guy from possibly shooting other people I do have to agree that had this happened and a citizen legally carrying a firearm had shot him instead of police and wounded 8 innocent bystanders that person would be in jail for. However, since these were police officers it looks like they are saying it's ok for up to shoot bystanders but you can't. No thats wrong...

And as for the one who said police officers have to make split second decisions on shoot or not shoot that are life threatening, guess what? In those situations we do too... Now that being said, if you know you have a good chance of having to do that would it not make sense to get as much training as possible?

Those officers have to live with the fact that they shot innocent people, I'm sure they didn't mean to just as a citizen in that same situation wouldn't mean to however, they are supposed to be better trained for it.

I'm glad they got the guy where he couldn't hurt anyone else, but if I am to be held accountable for every bullet I fire then so should they.

 

[bdjansen]

NYPD documents every time one of their officer's firearms are used. And that info is available for the public. I read a report of a year once somewhere. Some of the things that struck me about the report were how many accidental discharges there were, how many suicides occurred with officer's weapons, the low amount of times they hit the guy they were aiming at when using their firearm vs the misses, and how only once in the entire year did an officer use the sights on his gun when discharging his weapon. It was an interesting read.

 

[bdjansen]

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/afdr_20111116.pdf

It's not my intention to make judgements of the NYPD for good or bad btw. I simply find it interesting.

 

[bikerdoc]

according to this they didnt do too bad.

http://ww2.cox.com/myconnection/ham...cle.cox?articleId=DA0ST0KG2&moduleType=apNews

 

[Creature]

PabloJ wrote: NYC police handled that situation correctly.

No, they did not. As can be seen in the video of the shooting itself, the shooter was not even holding his weapon, which was stowed in his handbag. So he was not an immediate threat to anyone.

Had I been the on-scene commander, I would have ordered all police to trail/follow the shooter at a sufficient distance until the shooter was in a less crowded area before taking him down.

That whole situation is a text book example of what LE should NOT do. The NYPD around landmarks is far too "terrorist" focused and as a result I believe them to be trigger happy. They plainly over-reacted and they hurt a lot of people. That department is going to be sued like they wont believe.

 

[jad0110]

I'm suprised at all the LEO bashing thats goin on.

We aren't necessarily bashing the LEOs, more than that we are bashing the blatantly obvious double standard. If an armed citizen had sprayed lead at a perp in a crowd of people, killed the perp and wounding 8 to 10 bystanders, people would be screaming for the citizen to be hung. Can you imagine Mayor Bloomberg saying the situation was handled correctly in the above scenario? Not a chance.

As for arming LEOs with revolvers, better training makes more sense to me. It is the Indian, not the arrow as they say. Granted, if I were a cop I'd want to carry my S&W Model 19 or 28, based on my own personal preference.

 

[Double_J]

Lets limit them to 10 round magazines like us "commoners" and see if they like it. They seem to like to spray and pray. I have multiple friends who are LEO and Military who have been in gunfights, training makes all the difference. Live fire training is only a part of the package, we also need to require them to practice shoot/no shoot drills, dry fire drills, etc.

I also believe more training would help overcome the issue with the "12 pound trigger pull that no one can hit with." I recorded the trigger pull on my brothers sig p229 dao. It was around 12-13 pounds, yet both he and I can maintain good groups under rapid fire. I also remember shooting an old smith and wesson model 10 in double action to qualify for my security guard position. I believe the trigger was around 12 pounds there too, and I had no problem with aimed rapid fire. This comes back to training and mindset, both of which are missing in most leo agencies in my opinion. The pistol is a tool you may never use, but if you do your life may well depend on it.

 

[TonyT]

I beleieve the NYC police department has to examine their qualifications for firearm proficiency. More than a half dozen innocent bystanders injured by shots from the police is inexcusable!
Can you image the media fanned public uproar that would have occured if a person in a defensive situation had injured innocent bystanders during the process? LEO's as well as individuals have a responsibility to insure that their bullet does not do collateral damage.

 

[HKGuns]

I didn't realize the perp had stowed his weapon. This is a police tragedy if that is factual information. Not LEO bashing either, I have a tremendous amount of respect for our police and they have a horrifically difficult job to perform at times.

 

[Lawdawg45]

While I won't argue that they police had to sto the guy from possibly shooting other people I do have to agree that had this happened and a citizen legally carrying a firearm had shot him instead of police and wounded 8 innocent bystanders that person would be in jail for. However, since these were police officers it looks like they are saying it's ok for up to shoot bystanders but you can't. No thats wrong...

And as for the one who said police officers have to make split second decisions on shoot or not shoot that are life threatening, guess what? In those situations we do too... Now that being said, if you know you have a good chance of having to do that would it not make sense to get as much training as possible?

Those officers have to live with the fact that they shot innocent people, I'm sure they didn't mean to just as a citizen in that same situation wouldn't mean to however, they are supposed to be better trained for it.

I'm glad they got the guy where he couldn't hurt anyone else, but if I am to be held accountable for every bullet I fire then so should they.

Yet another mis-perception. While they're not "in cuffs", they will all go before a Grand Jury to determine if charges are necessary, a decision which will be decided by a random group from the public, not NYPD. Then they will all face an internal affairs investigation to determine if any departmental policies were violated, and even if they clear both of these hurdles, they still may face wrongful death litigation by the suspects family.

LD