Should i convert ?.

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by mr wack, Mar 30, 2016.

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  1. mr wack

    mr wack Member

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    Evening all,
    To all who shoot conversions , what do you think about them?.
    you see I'm torn between buying a conversion cylinder for an 1860 pietta ( MR Goon has it at the moment) or spend the pennies I've cobbled up and get a used revolver.
    I reload and cast for all my firearms so that isn't a biggie but I can't decide what to do.
    Buy a 45lc conversion or another used cheap revolver?.
    Oh and if I buy a cylinder how would it perform in a gooner gun?,
    Mr Mike you got your ears on,,,?,,,:evil:
     
  2. TruthTellers

    TruthTellers member

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    What cheap used gun are you looking at getting?
     
  3. mr wack

    mr wack Member

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    Well I have an 1851 Navy, so I was spying maybe a used Rem 1858 uberti or pietta .:evil:
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
  4. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    Depends on what you want to do with this 1860 Army repro. If you want to hunt with it then yes I would suggest buying a drop-in conversion cylinder for it. With the drop-in cylinder you can always revert back to loose powder and ball loads.
     
  5. mr wack

    mr wack Member

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    Haven't done much hunting lately but it's not out of the question.
    I was thinking because I have most of what I need to reload It might be fun loading for it.:evil:
     
  6. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    I have Howell conversion cylinders for most of my collection. I have a Kirst conversion permanently built [ because of the .38 barrel sleeve] on an Uberti .36 Remmy. I don't like running the conversion cylinder on my ROA, because the bullets aren't as accurate as round balls in that gun, but my stainless Remington shoots .45 Colt better than it does round ball.
     
  7. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Hey Mr. Wack!

    Well, I definitely like conversions and the Dragoon conversions (Kirst gateds) are my favorite. The '60 is fun and mine is strictly setup as a cartridge gun (no switching back to C&B for me!) and it performs fine.

    Since the conversions (for '60s) are 5 shot and the C&B is 6 shot, perfect timing isn't there for swapping back and forth. This means your'60 probably won't function with one when you get it back (unless you remove the action stop so you'll have over travel of the hammer).

    I don't want to say yes or no, I think Kirst makes a most excellent product but for a perfectly timed convertible, it needs to be a six shooter. (ie. Dragoons/Walker, .38 Navies) as far as open tops go. I'm not sure about the Remies, I have 0 experience with them and Kirst cyls.

    I will say, as far as Remies go, I have an older R&D 6 shot cylinder (45 C.) that stays in a 5 1/2" er and it is an excellent shooter.

    That's it, Conversions RULE !!!! Lol!!

    Mike
    www.goonsgunworks.com
    Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
     
  8. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

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    Howdy

    If you want to buy a Remington 1858, a conversion cylinder is a terrific idea. Unlike a Colt style revolver, you do not need to pull the barrel off the arbor to reload the cylinder, and there is no need to add a loading gate either.

    With a Remington you simply put the hammer at half cock, lower the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward and remove the cylinder to remove the empties and reload.

    However do not cheap out and buy a brass framed revolver. Conversion cylinders require steel framed revolvers.

    RemmieandCylinder.jpg


    The original six shot R&D style 45 Colt cylinders for the Remington 1858 are still available from Taylors.

    http://www.taylorsfirearms.com//hand-guns/cartridge-conversions.html

    Ken Howell sold his patent for the six shot Remington cylinder to Taylors, so all of his cylinders for the Remington 1858 chambered for 45 Colt from his new company, Howell Old West Conversions, are only five shots. Be forwarned, Howell does sell a six shot cylinder for the 1858 Remington chambered for 44 Colt. You do not want that cylinder with the typical Remington, you want a cylinder for 45 Colt. I have seen more than one person make that mistake.

    And yes, my pair of Remingtons with their R&D cylinders are very accurate. The tolerances on the chambers are tighter than on any other 45 Colt revolver I own, Colt or Ruger, and they are more accurate too.
     
  9. Curator

    Curator Member

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    mr wack: The best long term value is to forget about the 1860 Army conversion and save your pennies to buy a Colt SAA clone. The Uberti Cattleman is relatively inexpensive and can often be had used for less than the cost of the conversion cylinder. I bought one recently from a local pawn shop for $200.

    Having several "conversion" revolvers, I can attest to their less-than'stellar accuracy and ease of use. The 1860 Pietta has a rifling twist rate of 1 in 30" and will not shoot "Cowboy-level" .45 Colt cartridges anywhere near as accurately as a Colt SAA clone with its 1 in 16 twist. The Colt SAA is stronger and easier to load and unload as well. Where the conversion cylinders work well is shooting round ball cartridges or very light conical bullets, but in fact are more accurate using their original cap & ball cylinders, just faster to load and much easier to unload.
     
  10. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    The Remington with its conversion cylinder or the Rogers & Spencer, if you can find one, will give you the best of both worlds. My 58 Remington was very accurate using 200 grain 45 LC cowboy ammunition and that was the first load I put in it. I didn't have time to see how more accurate it could have been.
     
  11. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Well there ya go!
    My experience is exactly opposite of Curator!! My Remie has a slow twist barrel and it shoots my 250 gr. reloads rather well (I believe I said excellent in my post above). Also, my Dragoons have a 1/18" twist and will consistently put 6 shots into 5 holes in a 2" group at 33 ft. off hand (both of them!)!

    I have an El Patron Competition that is my carry weapon and I like it very much but, . . . . . it's not an open top!!! There's nothing like an open top that does exactly what you want it to do!!

    Maybe his lesser performance is due to a gun that isn't set up correctly? He doesn't offer any info as to whether the arbor situation is addressed, what is "cowboy-level" ammo? My reloads hover around 900-950 fps. I don't load to the gun, all of mine are on the same diet.

    I'm not saying anything derogatory towards Curator, but if you have many conversion revolvers (even the factory open tops) and none are "correct" as far as setup, you are measuring with a broken yardstick. Are there .38s being sent down too large bores? Are they "factory" conversions? Are they conversion kits? I fix open top setups day in and day out so, factory or not, they have issues that need to be addressed (for the most part).

    I have posted many many times that my Dragoons are the most accurate revolvers I have ever owned so for just over $700.00 each (guns and kits bought new), I have a bargain!

    Funny how that is . . . . . .

    Mike
    www.goonsgunworks.com
    Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
  12. mr wack

    mr wack Member

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    I thank you gentlemen for your responses and the one little detail I didn't even think about was the fact that the 45c cylinder is a five shot and thinking about it now it would prolly be a hassle to get it to work properly.
    I think i'll leave the 1860 alone when I get it back from the good Mr Goon.
    Me thinks I am going to get an 1858 to play with then "cobble up" some more pennies and get the conversion in that ,,,,,,, sometime afore the century ends :evil:

    Hey one more post and I'm at 100,,, time flies.
     
  13. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    If you're going to save your pennies I suggest you accumulate enough of them to buy one of the cartridge conversion revolvers that are originally made as cartridge revolvers.

    Yes, they are more expensive, but they have forged, not cast frames. The bore grove diameter match current day bullets, where the cap & ball versions can be way oversized, and they are proofed for standard smokeless cartridges rather then "black powder only."

    If you buy a quality black powder revolver plus a cylinder conversion set-up you will find that you end up with an inferior gun for little or no savings.
     
  14. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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  15. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Please be more specific.
     
  16. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    The new Uberti Remingtons have forged frames,


    "Uberti 1858 Remington New Army .44, 8" Blue with Steel Backstrap, Brass Trigger Guard
    Features: Blue with steel backstrap and brass trigger guard. Six-shot. R&D Conversion Cylinder sold separately. Manufactured with forged frame."



    http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/blackpowder-revolvers/1858-remington-collection/uberti-1858-new-army/uberti-1858-remington-new-army-44-8-blue-with-steel-backstrap-brass-trigger-guard-model-107a.html

    And for loose powder and ball loads this is some serious power;
    .44 Remington, 1858 8 inch 30 grain Triple Seven 140 grain, .454 ball 1070 ft/s 356 ft-lbs
    .44 Remington, 1858 8 inch 35 grain Triple Seven 140 grain, .454 ball 1174 ft/s 428 ft-lbs
    .44 Remington, 1858 8 inch 40 grain Triple Seven 140 grain, .454 ball 1229 ft/s 470 ft-lbs
     
  17. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

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    Howdy

    This is the revolver that Old Fuff is referring to:

    http://www.uberti.com/new-army-conversion-revolver

    This revolver is designed to look like the cartridge conversions that were done to the Remington 1858 Cap & Ball guns. With this gun, it is a cartridge revolver from the start, it is not a Cap & Ball revolver.

    But I will disagree with some of his points. Regarding being proofed for Black Powder or Nitro, it is the cylinder that has to contain the pressure of a cartridge firing, and the conversion cylinders are all made of top grade arsenal steel and are proofed for light Smokeless loads. They can be safely fired in any revolver that says 'Black Powder Only' on the barrel.

    Dollars is dollars. You can see what the manufacturer's suggested price is on the link I provided. Yes, if you buy a brand new Remington 1858 and then the conversion cylinder too, you will probably spend more money than buying the other gun. If you buy a used 1858 you may save a little bit.

    In my own case, I had already owned my old EuroArms Remmie for almost 40 years when I decided to buy a conversion cylinder for it, so it had paid for itself a long time ago. It was like getting a new cartridge gun for the price of the cylinder alone. My other Remmie, a Stainless Uberti, I bought used with the Conversion Cylinder included, so again it was less money.

    As far as accuracy goes, I have already stated that my old EuroArms Remmie coupled with its Conversion Cylinder is the most accurate 45 Colt revolver I own, and I own a bunch. I use standard .452 bullets in it.
     
  18. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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  19. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    So said mr wack.

    Since he apparently hasn't yet purchased a Remington New Model Army revolver (the 1858 date on the barrel refers not to the gun, but a patent on the design of the bullet rammer), I suggested that he should compare the cost of a C&B revolver to have converted, against that of one made to shoot metallic cartridges in the first place. In my view it's still a good idea. He of course can do whatever he choses.

    That may well be, as it largely depends on chamber/bore alignment and bore rifling twist and groove diameter. But I have seen some from various makers that were hard put to hit the side of a barn even if the shooter was inside with the door closed. :uhoh:

    An individual example doesn't prove much, one way or the other. However the law of averages favor those that have barrels that were made specifically to match the projectiles that were expected to be shot through it. ;)
     
  20. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    O.F.,
    I've posted many many times that my Dragoons (that have been setup as cartridge only guns with Kirst gated conversions) are the most accurate revolvers I've ever owned.

    Hmmmm . . . I believe I posted that above. Oh well, that's DJ and I vouching for the accuracy of these conversions. I know personally of many more folks with the same experience so, it's not an individual example, it's a bunch of individuals examples.

    Mike
    www.goonsgunworks.com
    Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
     
  21. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    mine too, with the exception being the ROA. I have tried loading the cartridges with .456 Conicals sized to .454 in the .45 Colt case [Starline brass] and gotten ''eh'' OK results, but I still can't beat the .457 round balls through the percussion cylinder.
     
  22. Harleytoo

    Harleytoo Member

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    How much load testing did you do and with how many powders & weights? Since I am just ordering a conversion setup for my ROA I have no experience with this specific topic, but know that with every gun I have (save my SIG's that thread the needle with anything I feed them), I have to spend a lot of time load testing to find a round that "works" in each gun. Especially with wheel guns.

    Also, these older guns tend to "typically" work best with heavy bullets. At least that has been my experience. My 45-70 prints better with a 405 than it does with a 300 as example.
     
  23. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    A pictures worth a bunch of words. First load I stuffed in it. Got it that day and gutted it cleaned the parts off, oiled and put it back together to go shoot it. At 25 yards, 200 grain 45 Long Colt. First shots are high because I didn't know where to position the front blade in the top strap grove but adjusted. Also trouble seeing the slender front blade on that Remington. But all in all acceptable accuracy.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  24. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    In theory Ruger's Old Army should be the best candidate for conversion to .45 Colt. The platform is unquestionably strong enough for at least standard loads, and the barrels have consistent groove diameters at .451" with a 1 to 16 rifling twist. This is identical to the company's .45 Colt chambered Blackhawks. Italian C&B replicas are most likely to have a much slower twist at 1 to 32, with some at 1 to 48 and a larger groove diameter - up as high as .456".

    Adjustable sights on some versions doesn't hurt either.
     
  25. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    I believe the 44s from Uberti all have a 1:18" twist today and a .452 groove dia. That's one of the reasons my Dragoons work so well. The revolvers have had this twist for several yrs. now.

    Mike
    www.goonsgunworks.com
    Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks


    Nice shootin Crawdad1!!
     
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