Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Should I load them any way?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by grubbylabs, Mar 23, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. grubbylabs

    grubbylabs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,856
    Location:
    Hansen Idaho
    I have some once fired brass for a 308.

    I have sized it in a full length die.

    I have trimmed it.

    The speer book said trim to 2.005, I am there and a little under on some,2.005-1.995. It was my first time.


    Well any way they still chamber really tight when I test them in the gun I will shoot them from.

    If I load them and shoot them are they going to get stuck or be really hard to eject?

    I am shooting a Marlin XS7 in 308

    Thanks for all your help.
     
  2. 918v

    918v Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,931
    If they are chambering tight, you need to bump the shoulder back a bit more. Lube your neck insides as the expander ball may be dragging inside the neck and pulling the shoulder forward on the way out. Your caselength is OK. They will grow anyway.
     
  3. grubbylabs

    grubbylabs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,856
    Location:
    Hansen Idaho
    I will have to try the lube on the inside, I have the die almost touching the shell holder.
     
  4. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2006
    Messages:
    7,395
    Location:
    all over Virginia
    You are just guessing if you don't use some sort of case gauge to measure your resized bottleneck rifle brass.

    You might get by with it the first time, or the second time.

    But mark my words, if you don't gauge your brass, you will eventually have a major headache on your hands.

    precisionmic.jpg

    precisionmic.gif caseguage-Wilson.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  5. James2

    James2 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    878
    Location:
    Northern Utah
    To full length size the shell holder has to touch the die.

    Was this brass fired in your rifle? If not I would certainly turn the die in until the shell holder touches the die on the upstroke and size them again.

    If you are loading brass that has been fired in your rifle you can sometimes get by without quite full length sizing it. In other words leave a small gap betweent the shell holder and the die. This then basically just neck sizes the brass and doesn't set the shoulder back. It makes for good tight head space, but you need to always adjust so that they will chamber without a fight.
     
  6. evan price

    evan price Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    5,476
    Location:
    http://www.ohioccw.org/ Ohio's best CCW resour
    I strongly advise anyone using range pickup brass to buy the Dillon case gauge. Worth the $24 or whatever they charge for it now. Just drop your resized case into it and it will tell you if it is too long or needs the shoulder adjusted.
     
  7. 918v

    918v Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,931
    No it does not.
     
  8. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    11,398
    Location:
    Northwest Arkansas
    unless you have an out of spec die or shellholder to full length size your shellholder needs to "touch" the die + a quarter turn to eliminate all the flex in your press when you're actually shoving the shoulder back on a piece of brass. Anything less is partial length resizing

    how do you figure

    I agree with having a case gauge, but not so much with bolt actions. Because if you're like me once you fireform cases to that rifle's chamber they'll never see another FL sizing till they wear out
     
  9. Steve Marshall

    Steve Marshall Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    Grafton N.H.
    I use Wilson case gages for all rimless cartridges I reload for. About half of these require the die to touch the shellholder. Obviously the rest do not. I don't know what the spec. is for shellholders but all are reasonably close to .125" in depth. Anyone who insists on a universal touching of die to shellholder is in error. Even Redding dies on occasion, require a gap. Before you make blanket statements, I suggest you actually check your work. I had a sizing die from RCBS in .243 Win., that required almost a 1/16" gap.
     
  10. Clark

    Clark Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    4,388
    Location:
    Where I5 meets the rain forest
    918V,
    Why is a guy with an IQ like yours posting on a handloading forum?

     
  11. Kentucky_Rifleman

    Kentucky_Rifleman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    672
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    The gap was required to bring the brass back to spec, or to bring the brass to proper size for your rifle's chamber?

    KR
     
  12. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    Generally speaking, it does.
    A FL sizing die has to be screwed in to touch the shell holder, Plus another 1/4 turn or more to take all the slack & frame flex out of the press.

    You have to feel the linkage "bump" when you complete the stroke.

    If you have a FL sizing die that doesn't work that way, either it or your rifle is out of spec.

    The OP needs to screw the die in further until the shoulder is sized back enough to chamber with only slight resistance when the stripped bolt is closed.

    By stripped, I mean to take the striker assembly & ejector out of the bolt so you are not fighting the springs when trying them in the chamber.

    rc
     
  13. 918v

    918v Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,931
    No it does not. Because we're dealing with manufacturing tolerances from three sources (the gun, and the sizing die, and the shell holder), the "spec" goes out the window.

    To push the shoulder back far enough for the bolt to close, the die has to be adjusted in such a way the internal shoulder of the die is positioned at a certain distance from the bottom of the shell holder. In many cases, the bottom of the die cannot touch the shell holder, else the shoulder will get bumped too much. You want about .003-.005" headspace at the most. If you "generally" screw down the die to touch the shell holder, you may end up with more than .005" headspace. Such an excess will reduce case life.

    Headspace is a difficult concept for many handloaders. It is basically the free airspace between the case head and the bolt face. The amount of headspace is affected by the shoulder position. The closer the case shoulder to the chamber shoulder, the less headspace between the case head and the bolt face. It is important to keep headspace at a minimum because the more headspace we have, the more the case stretches upon firing. Unfourunately, the case tends to stretch about a half-inch forward of the bolt face. It gets thinner and thinner, and then lets go. When a casehead lets go (fails) the shooter gets to eat gas. That is not fun.

    The proper die adjustment sequence is as follows:

    Screw the die to touch the shellholder when the rem is all the way up.

    Back off the die half a turn.

    Size one case.

    Chamber it. Is the bolt hard to close? If so, screw the die in an eigth of a turn.

    Size the case again and try to chamber it. Is the bolt hard to close? Screw the die in a bit more.

    Repeat until the bolt closes easily.

    The one-eight turn increments will result in minimal headspace. The bolt will close easily, and the brass will last a long time.

    Sometimes you have to screw the die in to touch the shellholder and then some. Many times you dont. Don't generalize when handloading. You'll blow yourself up.
     
  14. 918v

    918v Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,931
    Beats mowing the lawn ;)
     
  15. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    11,398
    Location:
    Northwest Arkansas
    There is only ONE degree of FL resizing --ONE. and that's with the shoulder and body of the case sized to the point where your brass will drop into a SAAMI spec case gauge. What you describe is partial length resizing to fit a particular chamber

    BTW you try that with an ar15 or a K31 and let us know how that works out for ya! What you describe is only practical for turn bolt action rifles. Try this on an autoloader and you might never force the bolt open again, that is if you don't get slamfires on your not quite FL resized cases

    This bears repeating in bold print!

    What 918v describes is NOT full length resizing it is in fact partial length resizing where the shoulder is "bumped" back just enough to facilitate easy cambering
     
  16. Kentucky_Rifleman

    Kentucky_Rifleman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    672
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    +1. I've used Redding, RCBS, Pacific, Hornady, Lyman, and Lee dies. Every manufacturer's instructions I've ever read indicate elevating the ram to full-stroke, tightening the die down onto the ram, dropping the ram, and then tightening the die an extra 1/8 to 1/4 rotation so that you can feel the compound lever of the ram "pop over" as it fully engages the die.

    THE ONLY EXCEPTION is for carbide dies, which need to be backed out 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn to prevent cracking/shattering the die.

    KR
     
  17. shenck

    shenck Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    Central PA
    Read the instuctions

    It amazes me that people say the things they say without knowing what they are talking about. ALL of the dies I own clearly say to have firm contact between the shell holder and die for full length sizing. the instructions go on to tell you how to partial size the casing. By the way all my dies are RCBS and Redding. You should read the instructions that come with whatever dies you own.
     
  18. Clark

    Clark Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    4,388
    Location:
    Where I5 meets the rain forest
    My post is kind of repeat of WEG, but I am worried that 918V will get disgusted.

    400_Case_Gage_Slant.jpg


    From:
    http://www.lewilson.com/images/CASE_GAGE.pdf
    What does it all mean?
    If your FL sizing die touches the shell holder, you are most likely setting the shoulder back more than desirable.
     
  19. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    9,318
    Location:
    Hopewell Big Woods
    On firing, the case will expand to the chamber walls ,then spring back, extraction will be normal. You need to turn your flrs die down a hair more so the rounds chamber easy.
     
  20. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    3,329
    The best advice I ever received was to throw out the instructions included with dies.

    Yeah, turning the die down to SH and adding a partial turn will (almost always) completely FL size the brass. How much, you ask? No one knows...unless they have a way to measure the setback. For all you know your shoulder setback is 0.002"; just about perfect. Or it could be 0.010"; asking for a case separation. I have dies that completely resize without touching the SH. I have two sets that required removing metal to allow complete resizing.
     
  21. Clark

    Clark Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    4,388
    Location:
    Where I5 meets the rain forest
    I am repeating EddieNFL's post, but I am worried 918V is getting disgusted.
    You can use the instructions, but you can do better.


    The .308 chamber headspace is registered at SAAMI to be between 1.6300" and 1.6400".
    The .308 ammo is headspace registered at SAAMI to be between 1.627" and 1.634".

    That means the cartridge case to chamber fit can be from .0004" interference to .0130" clearance.

    I have a 308 reamer and a 1.630" 308 go gauge.

    If I put a the go gauge in a Forster FL 308 die and adjust until the gauge and die shoulders touch:
    RCBS #3 shell holder has .010" clearance to the die

    If I put a the go gauge in a Forster FL 308 die and adjust until the gauge and die shoulders touch:
    Lee #2 shell holder has .008" clearance to the die

    If I put a the go gauge in an RCBS small base 308 FL die and adjust until the gauge and die shoulders touch:
    RCBS #3 shell holder has .004" clearance to the die

    If I put a the go gauge in an RCBS small base 308 FL die and adjust until the gauge and die shoulders touch:
    Lee #2 shell holder has .003" clearance to the die

    The die / shell holder relationship then is capable of making the brass too short by .003" to .010" minus spring back.
    Spring back is typically .001" ~ .002"
    (A) The average die, shell holder, and spring back will then cause the shoulder of the brass to be set back to 1.630" - .005"

    When I measure the head space of factory rifles, they are typically in the middle or upper middle of the .010" SAAMI allowed range for head spacing.
    (B) But if we assume right in the middle the chamber would be 1.630 + .005"


    Combining (A) + (B) we get the average chamber, average shell holder, and average FL die touching the shell holder, then the brass is set back .010" too far.
     
  22. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,736
    Location:
    Alabama
    Trim length is not safety critical once you are below max. If your case neck sticks into the throat and pinches the bullet, that is a safety issue.

    I just trim my 308 brass to a nominal 2.0" minus who cares. As long as it is not 2.015" or longer, I don't have a problem.

    Brass is just a gas seal. Neck trimming will not breech the case seal, but seating the shoulder back too much can.

    That is why for bottle neck rifle cartridges, I use Cartridge Headspace gages to set up my sizing die.

    ReducedWilsongagemeasuringnew308bra.jpg

    Can you see the ledge in this photograph? That is the difference between "Go" and "No Go". Which is about .006" for most cartridges.

    Cartridges which stretch more than .006" are highly likely to rupture. This depends on brass hardness and probably some other things, but brass will only stretch so much, and then it separates.

    Wilsongagebetweengoandnogage308bras.jpg

    Setting up sizing dies according to shell holder touch is an inexact way to improperly size your brass.
     
  23. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    11,398
    Location:
    Northwest Arkansas
    That's all well and good if you stick to loading the boring lemming 223-243-308-30-06 me too cartridges. But try finding a case gauge for 30HRT with a tight chamber or 7.5x54mm MAS?

    But again if I'm loading for a bolt gun I have no need for a case gauge because if starting with new brass my ammo will never see anything other than a Lee collet die
     
  24. Kentucky_Rifleman

    Kentucky_Rifleman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    672
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    This sounds like bad advice to me. I seriously doubt if I know Hornady's products better than the engineers who designed them, but that's just my opinion.

    If you're dealing with a rifle outside of SAMMI specs. But if the rifle is within specs, it should easily handle factory ammunition. If the dies are up to snuff (and I've never seen one that was outside of intense tolerances) then the dies, used as instructed, should full-length resize cases back to factory standards.

    In my defense, I've reloaded thousands of rounds for both .308 and .223 autorifles using the directions supplied with my dies, and I've never had a case failure or a rifle malfunction due to my reloading. I generally reloaded .223 rounds 5 times before recycling them and .308 rounds I held at 4 reloads.

    Using partial-length resizing makes sense for the OP's bolt gun. I personally prefer neck-sizing for bolts. But if one wanted to reload for an auotloader or a lever rifle, I would personally trust the folks who designed the dies I'm using. Can you get a fraction closer by using the headspace gauge and tweaking the dies? probably, but using the manufacturer's instructions has always worked for me.

    Just my two-cents worth,
    KR
     
  25. Kentucky_Rifleman

    Kentucky_Rifleman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    672
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Hey! That's hitting a little close to home brother! ;)

    KR
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page