Shoulder Bumping

[DKSDonnie]

I'm having problems bumping the shoulders back on my 270 WSM brass casings. I use a Lee press with Lee Full Length sizing dies and when I resize the die will not bump the shoulders back at all and the shoulder measurement actually grows .001 sometimes. I've set the die to touch the shellholder and screwed in 1/4 to 1/3 turns. No change. Screwed in more. No change. Unscrewed 1 full turn from touching shell holder. No change. I even went and purchased a set of the Redding shell holders and that didn't work. I don't understand the screwing in of dies because once the shell holder touches the die, it isn't going up any further, all you do is stress the press. There is "NO" cam over on my Lee single stage press. I suspect that when I lower the ram, the neck sizing portion of the die could be pulling what I bumped back, right back out. How do you stop this? I lube the necks. I did read an article online where a reloader had the same problem and went to a RCBS die, and that wouldn't do it, and finally got a Redding die that worked great. Do I have a bad die? Seems pretty dumb to have to keep purchasing dies to find a die that works properly when all dies should perform the same task as advertised. You could spend alot of money doing this. You could purchase alot of equipment to just sit on the shelf because it doesn't work. Should I send this die back to Lee with a fired round and see if they can diagnose my problem?Any ideas?

 

[badkarmamib]

I had the EXACT SAME issue loading for my father's Remington 700 SPS in .270 WSM, Lee dies, Lee press. Brass that ejected from the rifle and sized would not rechamber. Did some measuring, found the shoulder was not far enough back. I slid a 0.014" feeler gauge between the brass and the shell holder, which got me ALMOST there. So, I had a machinist friend chuck up my die and take 0.030" off the end of the die (he wasn't happy when we found that the sizing ring is carbide ). So, without a feeler gauge, I am setting the shoulder back 0.016" more than the original die would allow, and everything chambers fine. So, if you have the know-how or an acquaintance who does, this is the route that I can say worked for me.

I will add that the steep shoulder angle of the WSM family take a LOT of pressure to set back.

Here is the link to the thread I had with the same problem:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/270-wsm.809438/

 

[Blue68f100]

Depending on how many times the brass has been loaded, you may not be overcoming the spring back. I would anneal the necks and try again. What I have found that anneal brass will move approx 0.010" more with out changing the sizing die adjustment. I have Redding and RCBS dies. What I have noticed is that Redding will move the shoulder back as far as the RCBS without contacting the shell plate. I thing there dies are setup for the competition shell holders so they may work fine with a +0.010" shell holder.

Another option is to shorten the die body so it can be screwed down further. Best done on a lathe, but can be done with a file and grinder. The shell holders are normally very hard and require a surface grinder to shorten.

You could also have a sizing die that is on the long side of the spec. This is the main reason I do not like Lee dies. They do not control the tolerances well enough.

 

[DKSDonnie]

Thanks much for the info guys. I really think it's the Lee dies are too deep and not hitting the shoulder. Like I said, I expected the Redding shell holders to fix the problem but it didn't. I will try annealing them first. I did anneal them the first cases I loaded and was able to bump them 0.002 but it did give me some buckling on the cases. I guess because of the steeper angle on the WSM's shoulders it takes a better quality die to bump them. I have a 270 WSM and a 7MM WSM and it's the same problem with both of them. I keep you guys updated on what fixes my problem. I was glad I'm not the only one having this problem. I've never reloaded for WSM's and finding they have their own set of problems.

 

[fotheringill]

Surprised at the Redding shell holders not working.

 

[Nature Boy]

I had similar results with .308

I figured out that it was the expander ball pulling back through the neck and pulling the shoulder forward with it. I fixed it by adjusting the depth of the expander up slightly. Made all the difference.

My theory is if the ball is set too deep when you extract the case the die is not supporting the neck and shoulder allowing it to be pulled forward. Regardless if that is correct or not, my adjustment allowed me to bump the shoulder back

 

[FN in MT]

REDDING makes a shoulder bump die...but taking .030" off of a std FL die should do it as well.

I'd anneal a few pieces of brass and see if that helps.

 

[DKSDonnie]

I had similar results with .308

I figured out that it was the expander ball pulling back through the neck and pulling the shoulder forward with it. I fixed it by adjusting the depth of the expander up slightly. Made all the difference.

My theory is if the ball is set too deep when you extract the case the die is not supporting the neck and shoulder allowing it to be pulled forward. Regardless if that is correct or not, my adjustment allowed me to bump the shoulder back

Just curious? How would changing the depth of the expander not pull the neck forward any more or any less. It still has to pass completely thru the neck to resize it and give the same next tension on the bullet through the whole surface of the neck? I guess I could just remove the expander and size it to see if it bumps the shoulder and that would prove the expander is pulling the casing back out. Now, if that works, should I sand the expander a little to relieve some of the tension on the neck? Would it resize the neck properly and not give me problems during bullet seating process by being too "tight" and causing the bullet to push the neck back and the shoulder which may cause the shoulder/case area to buckle. Again, NOT questioning your intelligence! Just picking your brain. I see where if the expander was higher it would size the neck with more support from the die versus the expander sizing the neck as the case is at least a 1/4 of the way out of the die where there is no support.

 

[Nature Boy]

Just try backing the expander out 1/8 of a turn at a time and see if you get your desired shoulder bump before whacking on you die. Won’t hurt anyting to try it

 

[Rule3]

How are you measureing "shoulder bump"?

Is there a issue with chambering or just going by some measurement?

 

[Walkalong]

I don't understand the screwing in of dies because once the shell holder touches the die, it isn't going up any further, all you do is stress the press.

This is to take up slack from flex in the system, or simply press flex.

Posters are correct, the expander plug can pull the neck/shoulder forward. Lube it real well to make sure this isn't happening, or size a case with the expander out of the die and check shoulder position.

Worst case is you send the die back, or machine some off of the bottom of the die, but this is rarely needed.

 

[Walkalong]

How are you measureing "shoulder bump"?

Is there a issue with chambering or just going by some measurement?

Excellent question.

 

[243winxb]

Mr Lee has the answer. http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/List/Index/13/product-support

Knowledgebase

Can't close bolt on rifle
Posted by on 13 August 2015 03:20 PM
First make sure the the sizing die is adjusted so that the shell holder contacts the base of the die when the ram is at the top of its stroke when resizing a case. This ensures that the sizing die is bumping the shoulder back as well as reducing the diameter of the case. If the shell holder does not contact the base of the die, the diameter of the case is squeezed down, making the case (and distance to the shoulder) longer.

If this does not solve the problem, return the sizing die with a couple of fired cases, and we can modify the die to suit.

Our address is:

Lee Precision Inc,
4275 Hwy. U
Hartford, WI 53027.

His cheap press will spring on sizing.

When the ram is at the top of its stroke, check to see if there is day light between the shell holder and bottom of the die. If there is daylight, turn the die down more and but some muscle into it.


If both are touching, grind a few thousands off a shell holder.

Your are not the first to have this problem, its not always the Lee press.

 

[DKSDonnie]

How are you measureing "shoulder bump"?

Is there a issue with chambering or just going by some measurement?

I measure with the Hornady Headspace Comparator. Once fired brass will not rechamber unless I really torque on the bolt.

 

[243winxb]

Once fired brass will not rechamber unless I really torque on the bolt.

Is this after sizing? Will an unsized fired brass from your gun fit back into the chamber?

 

[DKSDonnie]

OK, I annealed 4 cases. Removed the expander completely. Installed Full Length Die to touch shellholder and turned die 1/4 turn more per Lee. Shoulder measurement still the same. Installed all 5 of the Redding Shellholders from .010 to .002. No change. Reinstalled expander and reinstalled die. Took a deep breath and had a smoke (outside) and thought about everything all of you have said and all the research I've done and sat back down. Lubed a case and resized it and for the first time on these casings I finally felt the "camover". I feel like a dumbass! This time it bumped the shortest shoulder back .0015 and chambered easily. I put the next casing in but it didn't bump it back as far and would not chamber so I put a little extra on it and this time it buckled the case slightly but still wasn't bumped back far enough to chamber. I'm really at a loss guys.

 

[DKSDonnie]

Is this after sizing? Will an unsized fired brass from your gun fit back into the chamber?

Once fired brass from my gun. It is vary hard to chamber again after firing and after resizing. I have decided to anneal after every firing. I resize it and the shoulder doesn't move and when I try to chamber, it won't go unless I put some ass into it. If I put some ass into on the press while resizing to bump the shoulder back, it buckles the case. I lube the case but not the neck. I do lube onside the neck to help the expander from pulling the neck forward.

 

[DKSDonnie]

I'm sorry but I don't feel as though you should have to shave this and shave that to make it work. There has to be something wrong with one or all of the tools or they should do what they say they should. I understand that a little adjustment here and a little adjustment there does make some things work better but we're not talking about $1.99 repairs. We're talking about being precise to a point that it only takes 0.001 to make it work. Sorry, I'm just frustrated. This press and die's are about to go to the dump in pieces. I'm one of those kind of guys that if doesn't work properly, I will attempt to make it work like it's supposed to but after that, it's useless to me. No matter the cost. I'm pretty good with my patience, but eventually I will snap. LOL! So I guess the question is- Do I send the die with a couple fired casings to Lee or do I purchase another die say from Redding?

 

[243winxb]

Removed the expander completely.

The expander may crush an annealed brass thats been sized without the expander. Chamfer case neck a litte more, maybe?

 

[243winxb]

Redding Shellholders from .010 to .002

Competition shell holder make the head to datum measurement longer. Not what you seen to need.

 

[edwardware]

Just a thought. . . you should try rotating a case in the chamber and see if there's a position in which it allows the bolt to close.

I was lost in a question similar to yours some years ago. Turns out I had a slightly egg-shaped chamber. Now I body-resize brass for that rifle.

 

[badkarmamib]

I will admit that this round has been very frustrating for me, especially considering that it isn't even my gun However, if you have a set of feeler gauges (the kind used for automotive repair), I would try sliding one under the brass while sizing. Start around 0.003" and work up, seeing if the cases will chamber. If you don't have them, a cheap set of gauges is only a few dollars at AutoZone, and will let you know if you have the same problem I had. Like you, I tried setting my dies every way I could think of, but couldn't get it to come down on the brass far enough, until I shortened the die. If the feeler gauge works, AND you don't want to go through the trouble of trimming your die, AND you do a low enough volume to slide the gauge in for each piece, then the problem could be solved.

 

[badkarmamib]

Just a thought. . . you should try rotating a case in the chamber and see if there's a position in which it allows the bolt to close.

I was lost in a question similar to yours some years ago. Turns out I had a slightly egg-shaped chamber. Now I body-resize brass for that rifle.

I believe my father's rifle has the same issue, since I took casings out of the rifle after firing, and immediately tried to rechamber them, and the bolt would be tight on some of them. With Remington's reputation as of late, didn't want to take a chance having them "fix" it under warranty, or pay a true gunsmith to clean it up, when it shoots 0.5" groups as-is, and he has more brass than he can ever use.

 

[DKSDonnie]

I will admit that this round has been very frustrating for me, especially considering that it isn't even my gun However, if you have a set of feeler gauges (the kind used for automotive repair), I would try sliding one under the brass while sizing. Start around 0.003" and work up, seeing if the cases will chamber. If you don't have them, a cheap set of gauges is only a few dollars at AutoZone, and will let you know if you have the same problem I had. Like you, I tried setting my dies every way I could think of, but couldn't get it to come down on the brass far enough, until I shortened the die. If the feeler gauge works, AND you don't want to go through the trouble of trimming your die, AND you do a low enough volume to slide the gauge in for each piece, then the problem could be solved.

Good point! I only load for myself so it wont be more than prob a box of shells per reload. It's not like I'm looking to break any speed records so sliding a feelers gauge in each one is no big deal. TX!

 

[DKSDonnie]

Just a thought. . . you should try rotating a case in the chamber and see if there's a position in which it allows the bolt to close.

I was lost in a question similar to yours some years ago. Turns out I had a slightly egg-shaped chamber. Now I body-resize brass for that rifle.

Thank You! Never crossed my mind to try that.