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Shoving the barrel into an attacker????

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by 19-3Ben, Sep 28, 2012.

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  1. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

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    Ok so everyone in this thread got all worked up over the prospect of sticking the muzzle of a revolver barrel into a bad guy and pulling the trigger.

    We've all seen barrels bulged due to obstructions (or at least seen pictures of it). I know that clothing and flesh are softer than the steel of the gun, so they give first, but is it valid to be concerned that with a very serious barrel obstruction (a person) at the end of a barrel, you might have a recipe for blowing up the gun in your hand if you do that?
    Obviously it would hurt the shootee somethin' awful to have that 18,000psi from a .38 blast into him. But would I risk blowing up the gun and injuring myself if I have true barrel contact?

    Then, I wonder if the barrel were ported would that have an effect by letting that back-pressure vent?

    Of course this is all academic, but I'm curious to know, and don't want to risk my guns or hands by sticking one of my guns into a water balloon and pulling the trigger to test this!
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  2. mesinge2

    mesinge2 Member

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    This is just an assumption with no research but I would assume that with a revolver's cylinder gap the danger to the weapon would be minimal as the pressure that is forced back would have somewhere to bleed off.
     
  3. SFsc616171

    SFsc616171 Member

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    Revolvers do not receive any damage from contact shots. However, it would do well, to retire to a cleaning bench, to clean the firearm of all collected "residue" collected, as a result of such shot.

    The bullet, upon the cartridge being ignited, will continue, through the clothing, just as advertised or portrayed with gel block impacts. The ball of ignited powder gas will follow into the opened flesh and temporary cavity, at temperature, cauterizing and expanding the immediate wound area.

    There will be no damage, or injury, to the one performing the shot. In fact, it is firearms instructor Michael DeBethencourt that advises for a contact shot, always aim to the groin.

    As a historical note: ".38 Special Round Nose lead 158-grain bullet from Jack Ruby's Colt Cobra, shot into Lee Harvey Oswald, took out Oswald's spleen, pancreas, right kidney, a few arteries, and the diaphragm."

    If a contact shot, made with law enforcement's most disliked round in .38 Special history, did all that to Oswald, and it is is all I have loaded in my snub nose revolver of choice, at that precious moment in my life, I'll aim to the groin.
     
  4. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    At the point where an attacker is so close to you that a contact shot is a possibility, the LAST thing you are thinking about is whether your gun might get damaged.

    AMHIK.

    The gun won't "blow up."
    It might malfunction.

    Have a plan for clearing malfunctions, and try to keep your head.
     
  5. 303tom

    303tom member

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    That would have bolwed up in my face !
    Would`nt have done my finger much good ither...........


    It`s just the first thing that came to me........
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  6. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    In one of the recent bear threads I suggested contact shots if one was aiding someone being mauled in a crowded campground, of course if you are the one being mauled there would be no question on the contact shot.
     
  7. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

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    As I said, it's purely academic.
     
  8. Greg528iT

    Greg528iT Member

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    Myth Busters had an episode where they plugged up barrels. Some bulged or ripped, but only after some real serious plugging, and on a closed breach barrel. A revolver with the cylinder gap, there is at least some release. Wrong side of the bullet I know, but.

    Also, if you are THAT close and NEED to pull the trigger, harm to the gun would be my last concern.

    Someone said to clean after. Ummmm you won't have a chance. Even in a good shoot, the pistol will be in police possession, at least until you are cleared, a couple months for sure. The rust from the blood will ruin it more than any barrel issues.

    I also thought of the Support Your Local Sheriff movie (one of my favorites).. Now I MIGHT worry about an old Colt SAA and it's metallurgy an a chance of it popping the barrel. :D
     
  9. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    A contact shot is not the same thing as a bore obstruction or plugged barrel.

    Air forced out of the muzzle ahead of the bullet at high speed and higher pressure will move the contacted object, or the gun, enough to allow pressure to escape and result in no damage to the barrel.

    On the other hand, a truly plugged bore can't get the plug out of it's own way fast enough to prevent a bulged barrel when the air is compressed between it and the oncoming bullet.

    rc
     
  10. 98Redline

    98Redline Member

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    The concept of worry whether or not you are going to bulge your barrel if you put the muzzle against a bad guy and pull the trigger seems completely asinine.

    If I am in the situation where 1) I feel it necessary to employ deadly force and 2) am close enough to put the muzzle in his ribs, then the thought of whether or not the gun will be damaged ranks somewhere down around the thought of whether I remembered to put the cap back on the Sharpie sitting on my desk.

    Now all of that being said if this guy didn't blow up his barrel, then neither will you.
    http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6528252/1
     
  11. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

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    Ok, let's do it again. Everyone repeat after me: "The question is purely academic." now your turn... "The question is purely academic." (the group chimes in)

    I'll make myself even more clear. If I have to defend my life, I will do so and really don't care if a gun gets destroyed, confiscated by the cops, etc...
    I was asking because a) I'm interested, and b) something that MAY make a difference is if the gun would blow up and severely injure my hand in the process, as that would impede my ability to fight for my life.

    I really appreciate the answers guys. Thanks. Seems like the academic issue has a consensus; a rare thing on a gun forum.
    rcmodel- thank you for taking the time to actually describe the physics of it and how obstructions damage guns and why this would not.
     
  12. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    To be blunt, if you shoot someone in the torso with a .357 at contact range you're likely to have to clean "residue" out of your mouth and nose as well. It's not going to be pretty. But if it saves your life, that's a small price to pay.
     
  13. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    A contact shot won't damage the gun. The pressure "vents" into the bullet hole. A contact shot with an "anemic" .38 Special LRN is pretty nasty because of the gas plug entering the body cavity. Bad JuJu.
     
  14. SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE

    SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE Member

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    I would imagine that it would have about the same effect as a "bangstick" has when used against a large fish . The expanding gases do more damage than the projectile ! Kevin
     
  15. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    Not necessarily. My best friend shot himself, contact shot to the head. The gun sat in storage for three months before they released it to his parents, who brought it to me. I cleaned it thoroughly(not something I EVER want to do again). No finish damage at all.
     
  16. DPris

    DPris Member

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    You may expect the possibility of a malfunction with an autopistol from tissue "sprayback", but a revolver should still function fine for successive shots.

    I think I recall one of Ayoob's slaughterhouse excursions that jammed a 1911 after a contact shot to a cow's head.
    Denis
     
  17. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    Since my previous post may have started this thread I thought I would expand on the details of a shooting a friend of mine was involved in.

    Background;

    First of all I got all of this information first hand and since he is a close friend he was very open about what happened.

    At the time of the shooting he was a Security Officer (S.O.) working night shift. His duty weapon was a S&W Model 29, Nickel Finish, 4” barrel with his own handloaded 44 Special ammunition which used a lead semi-wadcutter bullet.

    He has been in two shooting incidents.

    The Incident;

    S.O. responded to a entry alarm at a local pharmacy. When he arrived he started checking the building and discovered broken glass where entry had been made. He encountered the perp who tried to run from him. After a short foot chase they got into fight and the perp knocked the S.O. onto the ground . The perp leaned over the S.O. to continue to attack and beat him. S.O. fearing for his life drew his S&W with his strong hand, shoved the muzzle into the lower torso of the perp and pulled the trigger once. S.O. said the round only made a “POP” noise and he immediately thought “Crap a misfire.” He was just pulling the trigger a second time when the perp stopped his attack, said “You shot me” and fell onto the ground.

    Legal;

    S.O. said he was well treated by the police and investigators. The use of handloaded ammunition was never considered as a factor. He was quickly cleared of any wrongdoing.

    Medical:

    Perp suffered horrible internal injuries especially to his liver. The entire gunshot including all of the gas escaping from the muzzle went inside his body. The bullet was not recovered. He underwent several surgeries over a two week period while doctors tried to save his life. He finally recovered but lost 2/3 of his liver in the process.

    Aftermath:

    Perp was parole violator wanted in California. Police packed up what was left of him and sent him back to California without any local charges.

    S.O. could only use one hand to draw and fire his gun as he was defending himself against physical beating.

    S.O. says the one shot stopping power of the 44 is a myth. He said if he had it to over he would have kept pulling the trigger until the perp fell down rather than pausing to judge the effect of the first shot.

    S.O. later switched to carrying a S&W Model 27 with .357 Magnum loads.

    His gun was not damaged and remained functional for follow-up shots.

    I have personally seen four revolvers blow up. One of them the barrel split lengthwise (stuck bullet maybe). The other three were the result of too hot of loads and blew the top of cylinder off. One of them the top strap held everything together (thank goodness for me as I was the timer). With the other two pieces went sky high. Shooters did not suffer any injuries.

    During my IPSC days I did seen 1911 blowups with the force of the explosion going down the mag well blowing out the grips and injuring their hand(s).

    It is common for hunters to put a piece of electricians tape over the muzzle of their rifle to keep dirt from getting into the bore. When the gun is fired the tape simply blows off with no damage.

    When under attack or high stress most people resort to simple basic tactics.
     
  18. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    That is impossible. As has been said here and on every other forum, probably because of a certain famous gun writer who has spread it for years, if you use handloaded ammunition then you will get life in prison, lose everything you own, and your dog and kitten will be executed.
     
  19. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Ever consider that if you are close enough to a bad guy for a contact shot then you are close enough that he can take the gun from you before you shoot and then YOU will experience the effects of a contact shot?

    (I know, it never happens that way in the scenarios on the web sites.)

    Jim
     
  20. Hondo 60
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    Hondo 60 Member

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  21. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    True that, but I don't think anybody with a teacup fulla rational thought in play would deliberately wait until an attacker is close enough to execute a contact shot. Sometimes, it just works out that way.
     
  22. ultramag44

    ultramag44 Member

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    Greg528iT said:

    Myth Busters had an episode where they plugged up barrels. Some bulged or ripped, but only after some real serious plugging, and on a closed breach barrel. A revolver with the cylinder gap, there is at least some release. Wrong side of the bullet I know, but.

    Also, if you are THAT close and NEED to pull the trigger, harm to the gun would be my last concern.

    Someone said to clean after. Ummmm you won't have a chance. Even in a good shoot, the pistol will be in police possession, at least until you are cleared, a couple months for sure. The rust from the blood will ruin it more than any barrel issues.

    **************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

    Greg is right, if it comes down to it, I doubt the gun will suffer, and really won't care. I can replace a revolver but not my or my wifes lives.

    If it comes down to it, and you have time before the police arrive, run HOT water over the gun, dry and wipe it very carfully , leave it on a counter (not near you) w/ the cylinder open. You don't want it rusted when you get it back.

    Call a lawyer and REMAIN silent. Only the police take silence as an admission of guilt or wrong doing, DA's, Lawyers and Juries don't. Anything you have to say can be said through your lawyer @ the proper time, NOT while you are scared or emotional. Your lawyer will explain you were too shocked @ the time to make a statement. However, now you are calm, have explained the situation to him/her and he/she will answer all questions.

    <removed>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2012
  23. mesinge2

    mesinge2 Member

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    This an extraordinarily bad idea. If it comes to a jury trial I can see a lawyer using this as an attempt to tamper with the evidence.
    Basically turning this into an admission of guilt
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
  24. BADUNAME37

    BADUNAME37 Member

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    A former friend of mine had to put down a dog (he bit some kid). A black lab. He said he put the gun right against the top of the dog's head and fired his 12 gauge.

    Later, he wanted me to look at the bore, so I did. He asked me if I see any kind of bulges or anything. As much as I could see from the inside and outside of the pump gun, it all looked good as new. I realize there could possibly be a little bulge that would not be perceptable with just the human eye. Even running a tight patch through it would give you some idea of a bulge if you felt a section of less resistance to the patched brush.

    I asked him what it did to the dog, did it go through? He said, he was really surprised, the shot did NOT GO THROUGH THE DOG'S HEAD! I was amazed to say the least!

    But I did tell him it is NEVER a good idea to put the muzzle against anything, I told him I was surprised the gun didn't blow.
     
  25. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    That's not what's been said at all. Either you know it and you're pushing past sarcasm to an impressive level of intentional obtuseness, or your reading comprehension is hopelessly inadequate.

    In a case where the circumstances are clear, it's unlikely that issues like handloading or modifications to the defensive weapon will become important. In cases where there are questions about the shooting, anything, including modifications to the defensive weapon, handloaded ammunition, or even in one documented case, modifications to OTHER firearms the defender owned can become an issue.
    Correct. A contact shot will not cause damage to the gun because there is no effective obstruction to the bore. The bullet is going to exit the bore because nothing in the human body will provide sufficient resistance to stop it or even slow it significantly before it can get clear of the bore and allow the gases to vent.
    Horrible advice. The last thing you want to do is alter the evidence. Leave things as they are--you can easily replace a rusted gun for what it will cost you to have a lawyer explain why you tried to tamper with evidence at a crime scene.
     
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