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SHTF - 2 Long Guns and an Alice Pack on foot???

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Blain, Feb 24, 2003.

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  1. Blain

    Blain member

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    I have been planning for a possible SHTF scenario for quite a while now. With everything going on in the world now, it seems a lot more likely to happen now than it ever did before. I believe that the time will come, when I am not entirely sure, but I know it is coming. Maybe it will come this year, maybe this month, maybe this week! What I do know is that I am prepared for any such event.....or so I think!

    Like many of you I have my own bug out bag, a Large Alice Pack, (previously upgraded from a medium) with certain supplies that would help me survive in the wild if I ever had to bug out.

    Of course, I would take a firearm with me when bugging out, for protection and survival. However, I have a bit of a question; something that has been plaguing me for quite sometime now. That question is, is it possible or is it feasible that I could take two long guns with me on a SHTF bug out along with my large alice pack?

    I have two very effective firearms that I am quite fond of. Two that I put a lot of time and money into, that I would very much like to take with me if I am able.

    One is a custom Vang Comped 870 Super Magnum with lots of trimmings. This really is the ultimate close quarters battle weapon, I am very deadly and effective with it.

    The second is a custom M14 Armscorp NM Rifle. The ultimate long range battle rifle (IMHO).

    I am quite fond of both weapons and see the need for both as there are situations where I could see both being useful, and where I would want one over the other.

    Weight is not really an issue. (so I think now)

    The Shotgun has a 3 point tac sling on it, and the M14 has the regular rifle sling on it.

    I guess what I was thinking of doing was wearing the tac sling shotgun so it would hang down in front of me while slinging the rifle over my shoulder. The pack would be on my back.

    Is this feasible, or do I really have to choose between one or the other if I expect a successful bugout/survival trip?

    Let's hear it.

    What are you planning to do and why?
     
  2. BerettaNut92

    BerettaNut92 Member

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    Not sure about your environment but in mine (LA suburbs) an ALICE pack, one long gun will make you stick out too much if you're on foot.

    If I had to go on foot I'd CCW my pistol and leave the long guns behind. My Camelbak Motherlode looks like an 'aggressive' school backpack but doesn't stand out the way an ALICE does.

    Bugging in (bunking in at home which is my current plan), or in the car, long guns are nice but on foot...heck that's 25 pounds of long guns.
     
  3. Kahr carrier

    Kahr carrier Member

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    I dont think I would bug out in a SHTF scenario unless something Nuclear happen or was going to happen .I would try to be home if SHTF and if the house is still standing It becomes a bunker. and you have your Arms,Food ,Ammo,Generator and in my case Ham Radio.:)
     
  4. Blain

    Blain member

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    In a true SHTF sticking out ain't gona matter much I don't think, or it will be the last thing on everyones minds as the hordes and armies swarm upon all!
     
  5. COHIBA

    COHIBA member

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    a few points...
    you are never fully prepared.
    lose the shotgun, ammo is way to heavy to carry a decent ammount on foot.
    plan to have a few spare parts and ammo wherever you bugging to.
    topo maps, nuf said.
    move at night.
     
  6. Marko Kloos

    Marko Kloos Moderator Emeritus

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    You haven't been in the Infantry, have you? :)

    A rifle gets mighty heavy on foot marches. Most infantry grunts leave everything behind that isn't 100% necessary, and they take low-weight versions of everything that is. I wouldn't want to hump two rifles in addition to an ALICE with the bare essentials. You'd discard one after 20 miles, guaranteed.

    Why be on foot anyway? A vehicle gives you much more hauling capacity for supplies, and it lets you get out of trouble much more quickly than your hiking boots. A guy with a backpack and 25 pounds worth of weaponry is not going to win any quick-march contests.

    If you have to bug out on foot, skip the 500-yard rifle in favor of something lighter and short-range. A guy with a backpack advertises to the world that he has something to take, and the name of the game would be evasion, not firefights at 300 yards. If they're more than 100 yards from you, you ought to be hiding from them or going the other way. You should only use your weapon if detection is imminent. For that kind of usage profile, an AR or M1 Carbine would be superior to an M1A.
     
  7. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Absent nukes, I really doubt that any SHTF scenario will occur without any notice at all. Seems to me that a True Believer would have been paying attention and would be gone from an urban area before it actually happens.

    Condition Yellow applies to observation of world, national and local events and tensions as well as to one's immediate surroundings.

    If one is truly concerned about Horribles, one should develop such marketable skills that a comfortable living is possible in an area from which there is little or no need to bug out.

    :), Art
     
  8. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    Bugging out? Where are you going? Who is there to receive you? Not trying to be insulting, but your plan is apparently to be a heavily armed refugee. If post-apocalyptic travel is your plan, let me make the following recommendations:
    1. Don't.
    2. If you must travel, use a vehicle.
    3. Expect to be a target for all the others who are "bugging out" and want your vehicle and other stuff.
    4. Expect some of them to be armed and also expect that their policy will be to kill and rob you , in that order.
    5. Have a place to go planned in advance.
    6. Have people there who are expecting you.
    7. Have pre-placed supplies waiting for you with those people.
    8. Neither weapon you mentioned is particularly appropriate for what you describe doing i.e. escape and evasion.
    9. Weapons are tools. Do not become so emotionally bonded to a tool that you make bad decisions.
    10. No matter how romantic it all seems when you daydream about it now, it won't be in real life.
     
  9. riverdog

    riverdog Member

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    If I ever bug out, it will be days or weeks early and in a truck, ahead of the crowd. I'll have a back-pack, food, water, firearms and lots of ammo either behind the seat or in the bed under the tonneau cover. I will get out early, get settled in at my destination and wait it out. If I go for a walk it will be with a Camelback and a handgun.

    I view a shotgun and M-14 as point defense weapons in most of these scenarios. Too much bulk in ammo for walking around without other support. An AR-15 carbine may be a good option for walking around. More firepower than a pistol, less weight and bulk than an M-14 (rifle and ammo). But that would be at my destination and in a patrol mode, not a travel mode.
     
  10. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    Were I to consider your scenario, in lieu of two long guns, I'd opt for a double barrel, shotgun, rifle combo with procurement of food as the primary reason. Self defense... an obvious secondary thought. That's why God made handguns.

    Don't think I'd really want to pack 70 lbs on my back and even 10 lbs. on a sling at my advanced age (I ain't 20something anymore).

    Destination... important.

    If you've got one, prepare it for your arrival. Caches on route. Food, water and ammo.

    If you don't... get one. Or share one with like minded friend/relative.

    Enjoy life till it happens. Remember the Boy Scout motto.

    Adios
     
  11. scotjute

    scotjute Member

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    Put the shotgun/ammo in the car and drive as far as you can. Then hide it somewhere close by if you have to ditch your car. I go on hunts of up to 3-4 miles walking and I get tired lugging one gun around, much less lugging two long guns and a backpack full of 40+ lbs of survival goodies. Why don't you take a practice hike out in the wilderness with your alice pak loaded down and carry two 2x4's cut to gun lengths. I believe that by 5-6 miles you'll see what everyone is talking about. Secondly if your lugging 2-3 guns, you won't have one at the ready in case of sudden confrontation. It takes two hands to handle a long gun.
    Maybe a .22 pistol would make a better back-up gun.
     
  12. Blain

    Blain member

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    So if I have to choose one gun I should obt for the short range gun, aka the shotgun? I will try hiking with my pack...it should prove interesting to say the least.

    Where do I plan to go? Well....I havn't exactly decided yet, but it will prob be a hike to a small town or a national park or some place such as that. We have yet to actually do a practice bugout, but we will to see how it goes and evaluate any problems we may have.
     
  13. riverdog

    riverdog Member

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    While it's a good idea to do a run thru, don't fool yourself into believing that's the way it will go for real. IF the SHTF there will be thousands of K-Mart shoppers trying to beat you to the latest sale item .. competing to get to wherever they intend to go.

    A National Park? Hardly my first choice of places to bug-out to. You can't control it before the situation, how do you expect to control your position after the competition gets there. You need to bug-out with a larger group with mutual interests. Just my opinion, YMMV.
     
  14. Carla

    Carla Member

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    I'm planning on bugging in. If I have to go, I have a large trailer to haul supplies and a truck to drag it with but only as a last resort --- or if I get sufficient notice so that I can get out before everybody else starts to leave. A four wheeler gives me good short/mid range mobility. Weapons include M1A, Garand, a 22, 12ga 870, Colt M1911A1 45ACP and a few others. More than anything else, I consider my mind to be my best "survival tool".

    Blain, did you ever get your M1A to shoot smaller than 12 inch groups?

    Carla
     
  15. scotjute

    scotjute Member

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    I think he meant he was heading to the park for his practice run.
    Not that that was necessarrily his bug out place.
    Altho at least the game animals there will be sorta friendly, for a little while!
     
  16. Trisha

    Trisha Member

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    Blain;
    I'd consider having skills that would make me invaluable in a post EOTWAWKI environment far more valuable than a huge pack and pet rifles.

    I live in a small town outside of Denver - and considering the insanity we saw up here pre-Y2K by the without-a-clue flatlanders, in a SHTF scenario, we'd have no reason to welcome you.

    You'd stick out like a fool, have no on-site resources, and have nothing inherent about you to be a contribution. You'd be one in a horde of refugees, and we won't welcome resourceless strangers. Harsh but true.

    And no matter how well you plan, if you're acting alone (and aren't a spec ops vet) you likely won't stand much of a chance at all. Three adults have a chance (if they've trained extensively together), two might make it, one alone has none.

    Terrorist SHTF events will likely come in completely under the radar as nationally there are so many worthy targets, soft and hard, that are all but indefensable. Their total damage, though, will be comparatively limited - it's the social panic and the-sky-is-falling mob that is of some concern. . .

    There's a wealth of good advice from everybody - think things over carefully, act definitively, and then get back to enjoying life, OK?

    Trisha
     
  17. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    Before you even start thinking about SHTF, 'bugging out' (or in), and the World Ending in Nuclear Fire, ask yourself a couple of questions.

    - What threats am I trying to prepare for? Earthquakes? Tornados? Short-term civil unrest? Communist invasion? All of the above?

    - If you are bugging out, where to? A cabin in the woods? The home of a friend or family? In most civil emergency situations, your most likely destination will be a Red Cross shelter or something similar, which pretty much leaves out taking alot of heavy weaponry. How far do you have to go, and how will you get there? Car? What if the roads are blocked, or traffic is too heavy?

    - Training and practice. If you don't do any regular backpacking, forget about hauling an Alice pack on foot, you'll exhaust yourself inside of five miles. Ditto camping in the wilderness if you don't do that regularly anyhow. Gear is easy to get, but skill takes work. Do you know how to start a fire with a Sparklite, or with nothing but native materials? In the rain? Have you taken a first aid course?

    Last recommendation - take a look at www.equipped.org. It's a very professional website dedicated to all kinds of disaster survival, and it contains a huge amount of useful information.

    - Chris
     
  18. P12

    P12 Member

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    :confused: Like what type of skill?
     
  19. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Some skills that (I think) would be good things to have:

    Animal husbandry
    Agriculture
    Medicine/First aid
    Structural engineering (can you design something that won't fall down?)
    Construction (can you build it?)
    Outdoorsmanship
    Cooking
    Engine mechanics

    I don't live in the boonies, so I'd be eager to hear other ideas for good skills to have...
     
  20. Trisha

    Trisha Member

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    Advanced field medicine, agronomy, veterinary science, botanist/herbologist, master electrician, advanced martial arts, chemist - for starters. Practical skills that will be invaluable in a long-term perspective, worth teaching to others.

    P12, I see one's mind as the ultimate weapon/tool/resource.

    Trisha
     
  21. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    May I? :D

    Primitive metalsmithing, blacksmithing and forgework.
    Gardening.
    Foraging (i.e. knowing what local flora are edible, and where to find them.)
    Hunting, especally if you can process your own game.
    Auto mechanics.
    Distilling (fuel and recreational.)
    Primitive carpentry/woodworking.
    Medicine, again primitive.

    That kind of stuff.

    Edit: Ke-rist. Ian and I were discussing this very subject on the way home from the range yesterday. Shoulda known he'd post before me...

    - Chris
     
  22. Soap

    Soap Member

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    Exactly! Gear selection is nice but working on your endurance and skill set is even more valuable.
     
  23. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Yup - just like shooting. Buying a thousand dollars worth of boots and backpacks doesn't make you a hiker any more than a $1000 rifle makes you a shooter.
     
  24. Trisha

    Trisha Member

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    Ian and Chris;
    Absolutely! Your money means little if you don't have more common sense than the Goddess gives geese, and less still if it isn't exercised regularly.

    We're still a few miles shy of really being in the boonies, but reasonably comprehensive self-reliance is kind of a prerequisite if you want to live up here. Locally, flatlanders who come up here for their "living in the forest" experience are called "eighteeners," because they'll be long gone 18 months after they move up here and realize there's no night life (clubs, restaurants, theatres, etc), the grocery store is about a 40 minute drive one-way (in good weather), and the closest hospital is in Denver (about an hour, once you reach the highway).

    If one can live (not survive, but live reasonably well) starting with a simple hatchet, then one has decent basic abilities.

    Blain & P12:
    Consider getting at least EMT-Basic certification, and then pick at least two other skills from the lists from these posts. You'll have a ready answer when someone asks you, "So, what are you good for?"

    Trisha
     
  25. biere

    biere Member

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    Stuff timebomb2000 in a search engine. The site has moved but there is so much info on bugging out, bugging in, or just plain being paranoid you can learn almost all you will ever need.

    A national park or forest is better than camping out in the middle of a 4 lane highway, but something marked on every road map is a place I expect to be a common destination.

    The guns all depend on your area. A shotgun is great for getting out of the city or for in areas with lots of hills and woods. The rifle has penetration and long range and possably a longer and higher rate of fire than the shotgun. And all sorts of other things come into play as well. It all depends on what you can actually do, where you actually are, where you actually can go, and what you have to actually do.

    Prepare for everything, and you become howard hughes or someone who isolates themselves totally.

    Plan realistically and you can most likely accomplish everything you need too.

    Overall I prefer the rifle because while a shotgun can use shot, slugs and sabots to accomplish many jobs, the ammo takes up too much space and weight if you actually plan to have a lot of rounds with you. If in woods and planning to stay in the woods, a shotgun may be better than a rifle though.

    Some playing on sites dedicated to this idea will give you many concepts that can merge the two. From a battlewheelbarrow that allows you to carry a lot of stuff to a mountainbike with tires that do not require air it is out there.
     
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