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Sick of the National Guard debacle.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Diggler, Feb 11, 2004.

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  1. Diggler

    Diggler Member

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    I am so tired of the lib's bashing the President regarding his service in the National Guard. All these people trying to find a hint of preferential treatment? Let's look back a few short years to a less noble presidency. Bill Clinton wrote a letter to Col. Eugene Holmes during his ROTC training explaining how a 'fine person' could 'come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military.' Clinton's letter to Bataan Death March Survivor This is after Col. Holmes allowed him to join the ROTC rather than join the draft, because he thought Clinton would be a good officer.

    Then you have Al Gore, who DID go to Vietnam, but his daddy (who filibustered the Civil Rights Act, but let's not go into that) arranged for him to have a bodyguard to keep him out of trouble while he was there. Well, at least he served.

    John "F-word" Kerry. Went to 'Nam, served honorably. Thanks for your service, I admire that. BUT... comes back and spills more American soldier blood by resisting the war in the states than he ever could have spilled from the Vietcong when he was over there. He did this by resisting the war, helping communist anti-war rally organizers by swaying public opinion against the war which ultimately resulted in us losing. Again, John, thanks for your service, but I tend to look at what you've done lately... and you did more harm to the nation after your service than you did good by serving.

    Then you have G.W. Went to the service, served out his committment in the National Guard, and then moved on. He is getting slammed by everyone who wants to know if he missed a month here or there. But he has an honorable discharge? Doesn't matter, we have to make him look worse than the three upstanding citizens I alluded to earlier.

    In my opinion, at least G.W. signed up. At least he served. I don't care if it was the Salvation Army! Just the fact that he served this country puts him above probably 90% of Americans, including myself, who hasn't served in any branch of the military. AT LEAST HE SERVED.

    The hypocracy astounds me. SHAMELESS. This reminds me of one of the Simpsons episodes...
     
  2. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

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    Look. We all know what the National Guard was back then. It was a way for people to get out of serving in Vietnam. That's basically all it was. Yes there were a couple Guard units that actually served in Vietnam(and a Coast guard unit too for that matter) but they were the exception.

    And you know what? I don't care. I care about his policies and performance today.

    John Kerry's war record is unimpeachable. The fact that he opposed the war, and aligned himself with some real jerks upon returning, is irrelevant. He thought that the best way to save American lives was to end the war. The best way to end the war was to use his status as a veteran to support the anti-war movement. Frankly I agree with him on that. Colonel David Hackworth also spoke out against the war. Are you going to question his patriotism as well?

    His politics make him way too liberal however and for that reason, combined with his hatred of the right to bear arms, I would never vote for him unless he' were running against Hitler.

    You know what most Vietnam veterans are going to say when you bring this up? As the T-shirt goes: "If you weren't there, S.T.F.U." Lots of Vietnam Vets know his post-war activities and support him anyway. Questioning Kerry's patriotism is futile and counterproductive. Focus on his policies.
     
  3. DorGunR

    DorGunR Member

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    Giap praises Kerry, and his help...

    Giap praises Kerry, and his help...
    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/...10/222651.shtml

    Tuesday, Feb. 10, 2004 10:25 PM EST
    Gen. Giap: Kerry's Group Helped Hanoi Defeat U.S.

    The North Vietnamese general in charge of the military campaign that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led by Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry with helping him achieve victory.

    In his 1985 memoir about the war, General Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S. - according to Fox News Channel war historian Oliver North.

    That's why, he predicted on Tuesday, the Vietnam war issue "is going to blow up in Kerry's face."

    "People are going to remember Gen. Giap saying if it weren't for these guys, [Kerry's group], we would have lost," North told radio host Sean Hannity.

    "The Vietnam Veterans Against the War encouraged people to desert, encouraged people to mutiny - some used what they wrote to justify fragging officers," noted the former Marine Lieutenant Colonel, who earned two purple hearts in Vietnam.

    "John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands," North said.
     
  4. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    He testified before Congress that he personally observed American troops raping and murdering their way across Vietnam. He later admitted that he never saw any of that. He lied. That is very relevant.
     
  5. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    I can see the Dems raising the issue in the last election...although after all of them accepted Clinton avoiding ANY service it would be a tad hypocritical.

    But the man has proved that he WILL show up and make the difficult decisions...

    So the rest of this is just a load of BS...and Kerry is showing his true colors by piling on.

    Since we now have a president that doesn't diddle interns between decisions...the left is desperate to manufacture a scandal.
     
  6. Diggler

    Diggler Member

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    Personally, I think the best way to end the war would have been to allow the troops to use our military superiority and WIN the Vietnam war. The protesters (including Kerry) and the ensuing backlash didn't allow that to happen.

    I truly believe that if the war was fought (from the top down) as a war to WIN, and the public showed some support for that, we wouldn't have lost.
     
  7. org

    org Member

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    MarkTyson, there were more than a couple guard units in VN. A number of Air Guard units served, Iowa and Colorado that I can name, and others I can't recall. These were fighter units and they served their year in combat. By the way, they were there about the time GWB signed up.

    There were also guard and reserve ground troops there, but in limited numbers. Guard soldiers from some special forces units were there.

    You're correct that the majority of NG and reservists didn't go to Viet Nam, but it was no sure thing that they wouldn't.

    I agree with you....it doesn't matter. It's a contrived issue because they (the dems) can't come up with anything real. Right now the spin is that Kerry could win the election. Right now he might. Unfortunately for him, the election isn't right now, and Kerry has had non stop press for a couple of months, while the Bush people are just starting to respond. It's pretty easy to post big poll numbers when you're on TV 24/7 and your supporters are making big charges.

    I just wish we had better to choose from.
     
  8. org

    org Member

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    Diggler, I couldn't agree more. All you have to do is read a few books written by those who were there. "Thud Ridge", "Going Downtown", are two of the best outlining the ridiculous restrictions and the situations caused by those restrictions. When targets are chosen by the President and his advisors over breakfast, there's a problem.
     
  9. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    Hitler was a combat veteran. Decorated, too. That didn't make his politics right.

    I'm sure Bush got into the ANG as a result of daddy's connections, and I'm sure it was a handy way to avoid going to 'Nam. However, the claims that Bush was AWOL are looking more and more bogus. More service records are being found to account for his time in service, former accusers are recanting or waffling, and so forth. If the public can overlook Clinton's abject cowardice, it is unlikely to care about Bush's service record.
     
  10. Al Norris

    Al Norris Member

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    "Post 3 to Guardshack. I have movement in my wire."

    "Roger 3. Wait one.... Post 3, the SOG will be there momentarily. Do not engage."

    "Roger, 3 out."

    After a few minutes, the Sergeant of the Guard comes out and surveys the perimeter. Sees nothing and reprimands the guard for wasting his time.

    About a half to 45 minutes later, the guard sees what appears to be a man sniping wire. "Post 3 to Guardshack. I have bodies in the wire."

    "Roger 3, wait for the SOG."

    This time, when the SOG gets there, the guard points to where the movement is and describes the activities he saw. The Sergeant once again surveys the perimeter. He then turns and looks at the guard, "Corporal, just because you're going home in a couple of days doesn't mean you get to make this duty harder than it already is. Now unless and until something shoots at you, I don't want to hear anything else out of you. You get me?"

    "Aye, aye, Sergeant."

    About an hour or so later, having watched what appeared to be a sapper insert make his way to within 50 feet of guardpost 3 and slightly to the right, towards post 4. If the sapper was doing what he thought, that is cutting the detwires from the claymores, he had just left a wide trail through the wire. A trail through which many more of his kind could waltz through with only the guardposts to stop them. The ROE specified that you could not fire unless fired upon. The sapper hadn't fired. He was now in a virtual blindspot, between the perimeter lights and was more dificult to see than before. The corporal, tired of the BS from the SOG, picked up a small rock, made the mistake of standing up and threw it at the sapper, who moments later, stood up and threw something back.

    The flash was blinding. The concusion of the blast knocked the marine onto his back. Quickly, the Corporal flung himself against the sandbags and returned fire. Somehow managing to send up a red ilum and a white ilum. As he changed mags, he got on the LL to the quardshack and reported being under attack. Posts 2 and 4 had opened fire on the target. More ilums brightened the night sky. The enemy was running like crazy and escaped past the wire, through the deadzone and into the heavy brush that surrounded the Northern Artillery Contonement.

    The shooting stopped. A few minutes later the SOG and the OOD came to the guardpost. The LT asked what had happened and the corporal responded by telling him about first seeing movement and everything after that, leaving out only the part about throwing the rock. The SOG went to talk to posts 2 and 1, while the LT went and talked to posts 4 and 5.

    After about a half hour, the SOG and OOD came back to the guardpost and began counting grenades, flares and ammo. The rest of the night was uneventful.

    The next morning, the corporal was summoned to the Command hooch. There, he was told that he had seen nothing but a dog. While there was blood all over the place, it was dogs blood. The Corporal, standing at attwention asked if it was a dog that had thrown the grenade? The corporal also asked if it was a dog that had cut the claymore wires. And who had cut the razorwire to make a fairly straight path in between posts 3 and 4? The C.O., Major Stravinsky told the Marine to S.T.F.U. (It was obvious that because there was no body, the incursion never happened.)

    Three days later, on Sept. 17, 1971, I was in DaNang and took a flight to Okinawa. Seven more days and I was home. Thirty days later, I reported for duty at 29 Stumps. There I heard that 2 weeks after I had left, a human wave attack had hit NAC with the majority of the incursion funneling that area between posts 3 and 4.

    NAC consisted of a battery of 105's, 155's, 175's and 8 in Howitzers with one company of infantry to help guard the area. Thirty-Five Marines died that night with 65 more wounded. From my unit, 12 had died and we took 19 casualties. All because of the ROE and the politically correct way we had to "fight" that war.

    I hold people like Kerry personally resposible for the deaths of my buddies. It was people like him that encouraged the VC and NVA to continue when they were beaten. It was people like him that imposed the ludicrous ROE on us: Don't shoot unless they shoot first, and you had better have a body to prove they even shot at you. Craters from grenades don't count as evidence of attack, without a body.

    I would no more vote for him than I would Hanoi Jane. They are from the same mold.
     
  11. fix

    fix Member

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    Well, so much for that theory. I've yet to personally hear from any VN vet who supports him. At my local VFW, the opposite is true. Unanimous condemnation.
     
  12. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    At least these dem pres candidates are consistent when testifying before Congress. :D
     
  13. wingnutx

    wingnutx Member

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  14. DonP

    DonP Member

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    Kerry said he won't make an issue out of it

    As a matter of fact he says that he won't make an issue out of Bush's National Guard service at least four or five times a day lately.

    I have no problem with guys that went, guys that went AR or NG. (In fact one of the NG units that had guys in Basic with me at Ft. Campbell was activated and shipped over while we were in basic, ha!)

    I do have a problem with guys that weaseled out entirely, fled to Canada, then wanted the same citizen rights we all had after the fact. (Thank you Jimmy Carter for your amnesty and for in effect spitting in the face of every Vietnam vet.)

    I second the **** idea. That applies to Terry McAullife and newscasters too, unless he has a service record that I have somehow overlooked.

    Don P
    1st Cav, Airmobile
     
  15. noklue3

    noklue3 Member

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    And I hear the same at my American Legion Post.
    As far as I am concerned Kerry gave "Aid and comfort to the enemy" while our men and women were still dying in VN.
    May he and Jane roast for that.

    Art
     
  16. bountyhunter

    bountyhunter member

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    You are one of the few people who gets it. You nailed it. This is not about Clinton, Gore, Nixon, Ghenghis Khan ar Frances the talking Mule. There are exactly TWO candidates running for president and their records are the ones in question. Period.

    Why is Bush's military record an issue? Reason #1: In the 2000 race, McCain asked Bush to make it public and he refused. period. You try to hide something, that makes it an issue.

    Reason #2: Bush lovers are attacking Kerry as a commie and calling him "Hanoi John" (a reference to jane Fonda who actually went to North Viet nam) because he came home and opposed the war.

    You want to see HYPOCRISY? It's when the people calling a draft dodger who hid in the Guard during the war a "PATRIOT" start dumping s--t all over a guy who did his tour of duty in country and actually fought in the war.

    As to whether Bush actually did serve in the Guard as required? I doubt it, because of the records I've seen. But, it's not really relevant to the point issue: you have a draft dodger calling a war veteran a commie coward for opposing an unjust war. And, that is because Bush and his followers believe anybody who opposes an unjust war is a traitor... including his Iraq fiasco. IMO, those are the real patriots.
     
  17. idd

    idd Member

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    The same Oliver North who was convicted of three felony counts of lying under oath? Wow, now *there's* a reliable source!

    <roll eyes>

    I have gotten around to reading Giap's book yet. Has anyone here read it?
     
  18. DorGunR

    DorGunR Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You know what most Vietnam veterans are going to say when you bring this up? As the T-shirt goes: "If you weren't there, S.T.F.U." Lots of Vietnam Vets know his post-war activities and support him anyway.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I don't personally know of ONE vietnam vet that supports Hanoi Kerry.

    US Army 1950-1972
    SFC
    25th Inf. Div. Cu Chi Vietnam, 1966/67 1969/70
     
  19. DorGunR

    DorGunR Member

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    Old Crimson Interview Reveals A More Radical John Kerry

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Published on Wednesday, February 11, 2004
    Old Crimson Interview Reveals A More Radical John Kerry
    The Crimson reported Kerry called for U.N. control of troops in 1970

    By ZACHARY M. SEWARD
    Crimson Staff Writer


    Ten months after returning home from Vietnam, a young John Kerry strolled into the offices of The Harvard Crimson on Feb. 13, 1970 as an obscure underdog in the Democratic Congressional primary.
    The decorated veteran, honorably discharged after a tour of duty in the Mekong Delta, spoke in fierce terms during his daylong interview with The Crimson’s Samuel Z. Goldhaber ’72.

    But almost 34 years later, Kerry’s remarks on American military and intelligence operations vastly diverge from opinions expressed by the present-day Sen. John F. Kerry, D.-Mass., the leading candidate in the Democratic primary for president.

    “I’m an internationalist,†Kerry told The Crimson in 1970. “I’d like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations.â€

    Kerry said he wanted “to almost eliminate CIA activity. The CIA is fighting its own war in Laos and nobody seems to care.â€

    The Kerry campaign, celebrating primary victories in Virginia and Tennessee last night, declined to comment on the senator’s remarks.

    As a candidate for president, Kerry has said he supports the autonomy of the U.S. military and has never called for a scale-back of CIA operations.

    Former Secretary of Labor Robert B. Reich defended Kerry’s 1970 statements as appropriate for their time.

    “In the context of the Vietnam War, those comments are completely understandable,†said Reich, who has endorsed Kerry.

    But a spokesperson for President Bush’s reelection campaign said Kerry’s 1970 remarks signaled the senator’s weakness on defense.

    “President Bush will never cede the best interests of the national security of the American people to anybody but the president of the United States, along with the Congress,†said the spokesperson, Kevin A. Madden.

    The increasingly likely matchup between Kerry and Bush has already prompted comparisons of the senator’s record in Vietnam and the president’s domestic service in the National Guard. And the two Yale graduates, both members of the secret society Skull and Bones, appeared set to square off in future months under the specter of the ongoing war in Iraq.

    Goldhaber, whose first-person profile of Kerry ran in The Crimson Feb. 18, 1970, said yesterday he recalled the candidate as an emerging outsider whose campaign focused squarely on his opposition to the Vietnam War.

    “We lived, dreamed and breathed Vietnam,†Goldhaber said.

    Still, Adam Clymer ’58, political director of the National Annenberg Election Survey at the University of Pennsylvania, said Kerry’s comments would likely find their way into Bush campaign materials.

    “If I were them, I’d use this,†said Clymer, a former Crimson president. “I’d use it in direct mail.â€

    Kerry’s conservative opponents have already begun painting the Massachusetts senator and former deputy governor as an elite, New England liberal, and his 21-year voting record in the Senate may provide considerable ammunition.

    Madden said the Bush campaign would highlight Kerry’s Senate votes should he win the Democratic nomination.

    And Reich forecasted G.O.P. research would extend far beyond Capitol Hill.

    “If Kerry is the nominee, Republicans will try and search back into everything he ever said on every issue,†Reich predicted.

    Kerry’s 1970 remarks to Goldhaber portray a fiery, novice politician inspired by his opposition to the Vietnam War.

    “He struck me as very ambitious,†Goldhaber said yesterday. “He struck me as the sort of person—even back then, newly returned from Vietnam—who was thinking about running for president.â€

    —Staff writer Zachary M. Seward can be reached at seward@fas.harvard.edu.

    http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article357339.html

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  20. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    bountyhunter said:
    Hid, huh? Interesting take, however misinformed.

    The following from a pilot [COL. William Campenni (retired)]
    who served with Bush:


    "There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard (such as Lt. Bush and me) would be spending the next two years on active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was even deemed combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which you were going back was an F-100, you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding service? Yeah, tell that to those guys.

    The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such pilots were risking their lives or even dying while Lt. Bush was in Texas. Our Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life."

    Just so you know...the SOP for loss of control of a Thud at 10,000 feet (!!!) was to eject. 10,000, not a typo.
     
  21. fix

    fix Member

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    Move to accept. All in favor?
     
  22. Cool Hand Luke 22:36

    Cool Hand Luke 22:36 member

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    I don't consider Sen. Kerry a traitor based on his anti-war activities. I base it on his having accepted campaign contributions (bribes) from the People's Republic of China's military Intelligence Officers stationed here in D.C. at the same time the most advanced U.S. nuclear warhead designs were being stolen from the Los Alamos labs by the same Chinese.

    We can argue over the reasons why, but there's no real doubt that Kerry is in fact a traitor.
     
  23. wingman

    wingman Member

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    Sad to say I don't see a good candidate on either side and not really sure
    if we will ever see one again due to the media, super rich, and special interest
    groups. If a true leader stepped forward he would not last long in todays
    world.:banghead:
     
  24. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    No one hid in the Guard....

    It may have been a way to serve that had a low probablilty of deploying, but it wasn't hiding out. The military was prepared to deploy guard and reserve troops if necessary. Many ANG and AF reservists flew missions in SEA. The ARNG and USAR deployed few troops, but that was based on a political decsion made by the president to keep the war from diverting attention from the Great Society programs they were pushing at the same time.

    The ARNG maintained a Selected Reserve Force or SRF that trained twice a month to be ready for near instant deployment.

    As for Presidnet Bush's drill attendance, flight crews often drilled throughout the month due to mission requirements and not on the standard one weekend a month schedule. It's quite possible that other people in the unit would not have seen him there at drill. We were still involved in the cold war at this tiem and these ANG intercepter units maintained CAPs and fighters on strip alert 24-7 in those days. In fact if we still had them on the job there is a good possibilty all of the hijacked airliners on 11 Sep 2001 would have been intercepted before they reached their targets. If there had been an attack while Bush was on duty, I have no doubt he would have engaged the enemy with his obsolete F102.

    It's also not uncommon for people, even low ranking enlisted to take a leave of absence and either make up the drills before or after the drill was scheduled. Federal law states that these drills are to be made up in a 90 day window around the actual drill date, but that rule is still routinely ignored. And not just for politically connected pilots either.

    The democrats are taking dangerous road by casting stones at Bush's guard record. They are also casting stones at the millions of other citizen soldiers who have served honorably and who are on the front lines today....In every theater in the GWOT.

    Jeff
     
  25. fix

    fix Member

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    Damn right! Over 25% of the casualties in Iraq have been reservists/NG. So much for hiding out. I'm guessing they (who lived) and their families will probably not look to favorably on Kerry come November.
     
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