Sig P210 question

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by CharliesHammer, Jan 12, 2020.

  1. CharliesHammer

    CharliesHammer Member

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    My younger brother is turning fifty this next year. At trigger con last summer I saw him admiring a Sig P210. I want to get him a good 50th B-day present. He hunts pheasant and also considered getting him an o/u Red Label.
    Are you guys aware of any negatives on the Sig?
     
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  2. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Only the price. :)
     
  3. CharliesHammer

    CharliesHammer Member

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    It is steep but you only turn 50 once, besides he is a great brother.
     
  4. Bert W.

    Bert W. Member

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    I love my new Sig P210. It is very accurate and a blast to shoot. I hope this helps your decision.
     
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  5. CharliesHammer

    CharliesHammer Member

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    This kind of info really helps! I know he likes it cosmetically, just want to be sure they work right before handing over the cash.
     
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  6. zaitcev

    zaitcev Member

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    Folks at pistol-forum.com like to seethe about mechanical issues with American P210. But I gather they aren't any worse than you get with an average high-end pistol. I would not have any qualms buying one. And the price is not that high. We aren't talking STI 2011 here. I am not rushing out to buy one because there's no factory optics (you may be able to get an adapter from ArmoryCraft for the Target slide, but it does not look awesome IMHO), and because the magazine capacity too low for these days (my local matches mandate 10, have stages with 12).
     
  7. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    I had a P-210-6 a number of years back. Marvelous gun, and very accurate. Mine came with a proof target showing a 1.7" group at 50 meters (55 yards). I wasn't marksman enough (nor did I have good enough eyesight) to ever try its accuracy at that distance.

    We had some major family medical issues back then -- which created a big financial problems -- and I ended up selling the P-210, a beautiful S&W 52-2, and a very nice (seemed almost NIB, with all matching numbers) bring-back Luger. I didn't want to sell them, but it was the best solution to the financial problems I was facing at the time. (I'm not comfortable with debt, beyond a mortgage and car payment. I don't have either of those, now.)

    I'd love to have another P-210, and if I win the lottery, or do well in a scratch-off, I'll get one of the newer ones.
     
  8. Bert W.

    Bert W. Member

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    I've not had any hiccups with mine. I use it for bullseye shooting, so I'm good with magazine capacity. I think it is a good value for the price. However, I'm no tactical, run and gun, multiple alphabet affiliated shooter.
     
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  9. CharliesHammer

    CharliesHammer Member

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    The gun will be used for bullseye style shooting.
     
  10. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    That's awesome. I gave my mentor a S&W 617 as a retirement gift, and he was totally taken aback. It was a real pleasure giving it to him.
    Then you're on the right track!

    I personally don't know of any issues, and I also would love to bring one home. Hope you find a good one.
     
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  11. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    The purists look down their nose at it, but actual shooters like them.
    I have a -6 which is a great gun and it doesn't hammer bite me; but it eats up 2 out of 3 who try it.
    The A has a pronounced beavertail.
     
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  12. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    High cost but almost in-arguable value escalation for him as time passes.

    There are certainly arguable points as to potentially getting *better* for less but the 210 is WAAAAAAY up there in *awe factor* like the Bren 10, ASP or a Factory-custom Hi Power as far as semis go.

    I feel bad for anyone not slowed down in a gun-show aisle by a resting 210.

    Red Labels are THE pooh in their market but fact is, I can hop in my jeep and find a half-dozen for sale in 2 hours around me.

    Even in this day & age, making a half-century is noteworthy.

    Todd.
     
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  13. CharliesHammer

    CharliesHammer Member

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    Thank you all for the feedback. I know he will love the Sig. It is a beautiful weapon. Now to start saving more money.
     
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  14. WVsig

    WVsig Member

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    The new P210 is a P210 in name only. It does not share most of the design characteristics of the older Swiss made guns. They have and IMHO will have no future collector value. This does not make them bad pistols but be aware that things that make the Swiss guns special are missing from the new gun. I personally think there are better guns that the new P210 at their NIB price point. The older ones are amazing but are going to cost you a lot more than the current offering from Exter.
     
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  15. CharliesHammer

    CharliesHammer Member

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    I'm sure there are better guns at the price point. The 210 is what he likes. Our family passes guns on anyway. One day a nephew will inherit a nice gun that his dad got from his uncle.
    Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge. I'm sure people have speculated on these guns and are or will be disappointed.
     
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  16. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    Recipients of legacy-guns... the gracious recipients of legacy guns don't look gift horses in the mouth.

    Givers of gifts for the joy of giving to that particular recipient don't worry (beyond affordability) about value.

    Decades or generations later no one cares - beyond conversational/anecdotal curiosities - about what a gift cost originally.

    Do the one that makes you happiest because you think it'll make him happiest and don't put too much weight in favor of nay-sayers.

    Todd.
     
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  17. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    The negative is I don't have a brother like you to buy one for me!:)
     
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  18. WVsig

    WVsig Member

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    I think it is worth making the point that the thing that made the original Swiss and even the later German P210 is the lockup of the barrel is different than the current US made gun. You can see how it locks up into the slide using a Browning style lockup. The new one uses a P220 like lock up. It uses a locking block style barrel. The legendary accuracy from the P210 comes from the lockup of the barrel into the slide. The current one is basically a P220 with a slide that rides inside the rails of the frame or receiver similar to a CZ. Again none of this makes is bad it just means its not a P210 in its fundamental design.

    I agree 100% if that is what the OP's brother wants that is what he should buy him but I hope he truly understands what he is getting. Lots of people commenting in this thread are confusing the two platforms or at least treating them as if they are the same. They are not. Many people who have extensive time on the older ones do not like the new one because it has a very different feel in the hand vs the original. YMMV

    sigboot3.jpg

     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
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  19. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    You may be correct in your analysis...

    But I've always been led to believe that what made the original Swiss and later German P-210s better than most other guns was that they were basically hand-fit by master craftsmen at the factory, and NOT because they used Browning's barrel/slide lockup system. The older P-210s were semi-custom guns built in a factory, and that made them more costly than the average gun.

    As it turned out, that eventually made them too costly for the military and police units that gave them their start. As time passed pretty-good alternative service pistols became available for maybe 1/3 the P-210's cost, and demand for SIG P210-level performance diminished.

    The SIG P-226 (and P-220) X-5s X-6s are well-fit guns, and a number of the 9mm P-226 X5 models I've seen and watched others shoot, seemed to offer very similar accuracy -- even though these guns also use the "SIG" locking block desin rather than the Browning barrel/slide design. I've had several p226s, and a P226 X-5 (.in .40), and I'd argue those two P226s were similar --but just like VW Beetle-based Porsche 914 was similar to a Porsche 911. (I couldn't shoot my SA X-5 in .40 well at all, but others could, so I eventually sold it. It was a beautiful gun, but it became a safe queen of my inability to shoot it well. I bought it used -- It was an early model unchanged from its factory condition -- and very heavily oversprung. The guy I sold it to was a good home gunsmith, but he eventually sold it too. Some of the springs are different than the P226 springs, and we were kind of stuck.)

    A lot of modern guns use the Browning barrel/slide lockup, but they aren't given the same attention to fit and lockup when made as the older Sigs were. Several of my CZs and my Sphinx SDP use that same lockup method - in fact are very similar to the P-210 in that respect --, and the Sphinx is a nicely fit gun. (Maybe not P-210-6-nice, but nothing to be ashamed of either, and redesigned from earlier models of the Sphinx line so that newer technology could be used so that that less hand work was required..)

    A lot of 1911s using an older Browning design, and many guns set up for Bullseye are very accurate. I know, too, that the Army Marksmanship Unit's gunsmiths have been able to take versions of Beretta M9s (sow's ears, to my thinking) and turn them into Silk Purses. Those guns don't have the same Browning barrel/slide connection as the P210.​

    It seems to me that if the master gunsmiths, craftsmen and technicians building the newer version of the P210 can get that same level of consistent lockup using a different lockup style, perhaps using newer CNC technology, the lockup method may not be a controlling factor. Can they? Do they?

    I've not seen any real performance testing of the new P210 line and if there are such results available, I'd wish someone would share it with us. (I don't mean gun magazine tests or reviews -- I mean serious tests using Ransom Rests by people who really know what they're doing.) That might give us a better idea of just how good or how bad the new P210s really are.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
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  20. Michael A Ferber

    Michael A Ferber Member

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    The Sig P210 is an absolute classic. I couldn't think of a better present. Been on my radar for at least 20 years!
     
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  21. zaitcev

    zaitcev Member

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    Did you notice that a big mismatch exists between the drawing that you included and the animation? In the drawing, the axis of the barrel is tilted up when in lock-up, while parallel to the slide when ejecting and loading (like CZ-75), but in the animation it's the opposite: the axis of the barrel is parallel to the rails when firing, and tilted down when operating (like 1911 and TT).

    Which do you think matches the reality?
     
  22. sigarms228

    sigarms228 Member

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    American Rifleman did testing of the P210A from ransom rest and got excellent accuracy from it.

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/12/21/tested-sig-sauer-s-made-in-america-p210-pistol/

    A Sigtalk forum member also did some extensive testing and got similar results with cheap range ammo. Sadly the pictures from his review no longer works though but his recaps are still there.

    https://sigtalk.com/p210/247986-swiss-p210-5ls-german-p210-super-target-5-american-p210a-tgt.html
     
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  23. WVsig

    WVsig Member

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    I believe with all due respect you are missing the point of my posts. Too many people do not understand that the new P210 is not the same as the old P210. They talk about the two guns interchangeably. The design has been altered. It is basically a P220 in a P210 shell. It is not a X-5 pistol built in the Mastershop in Germany. It is a production pistol made to a price point because Sigs relationship with the German and Swiss companies that own the older design parted ways with the US based Sig. Also Sig Sauer in the USS is a mass marketed volume gun manufacturer not a hand made custom shop. Sig Sauer USA located in NH does not have a custom shop anything like the German Company does. They do basic tune ups, sight installations and very basic trigger work. They are not like Colt or SA who have a separate custom shop for particular runs of guns or true custom work. So the idea that Sig Sauer of NH has old world master pistolsmiths building these guns is a complete red herring because they don't. The current P210 is a production line gun.

    And yes you can take a lot of different guns and put them into the hands of a custom gunsmith and make they unbelieveable tack drivers at 50 yards+ but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about stock guns coming out of the OEM factory. The Browning lockup is part of he accuracy equation and the mystic of the Swiss P210. It is not the only way to skin a cat. There are other ways to make a gun more accurate and many people make that happen without the Browning lockup but again it is part of what makes the P210 special and sought after. It is similar to the fixed barrel of the HK P7. It is part of the legend that makes those particular guns so prized. Is it more myth than truth it is not for me to say. but lets not compare apples to oranges.

    I am not saying that they are not good guns. They are good guns but they are different in the hand and on paper vs the older guns. Look at how many of the replies in this thread treat the two distinctly different designs as if they are the same. They are not. That is the point I am trying to drive home. American Rifleman did testing at 25 yards but 50 yards is really where the mechanical accuracy of a pistol really show itself. None of that however is my point.

    I am simply trying to point out that if you go to your local gun store and pickup a new P210 and think that you are getting the same pistol as the Swiss P210 only made in the US you will be disappointed. Not that it matters to the OP or others but this incarnation of the gun will not appreciate in value like the Swiss or German made guns unless Sig quickly discontinues it. It if sells at the mass production price point it is currently at they will be no more collectible than a Sig Legion. Again I cannot say it enough times but maybe if I do it will sink in. This does not make the current US production P210 a bad gun. It just makes it what it is.

    I believe the video is the more accurate representation but I can't remember 100% off the top of my head.

    IIRC that accuracy testing was done off a rest by the shooter not on a ransom rest. The American Rifleman article by Clapp shot the gun at 25 yards from a Ransom Rest. The industry rags don't like to shoot accuracy tests at 50 yards very often. I do not know why. The showing at 25 yards on both those test are decent. They are what I would expect from a quality gun like the current P210 but remember that the old Swiss P210 shipped with a test target at 50 meters. At 50 meters is where the wheat separates from the chaff. IMHO

    8583435_03_swiss_sig_p210_with_original_b_640.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  24. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    The OP stated his brother was admiring a Sig 210 at "TriggerCon" last summer.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but does this NOT imply that his brother was admiring a new-model 210? Therefore isn't the debate of whether a new 210 is good enough simply moot?

    If he liked the new one he was glomming, I'm sure he won't care about differences - esoteric or otherwise - between generations or manufacturing points of the pistol.

    Todd.
     
  25. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    I didn't misread your comments, WVsig. I'm just not sure that the Browning barrel/slide design is as important as you suggest. The newer version of the gun is somewhat different internally, but I am not convinced that the difference in barrel/slide lockup matters as much as you think it does. That's why I said the following:

    I don't know. But, I don't believe the Browning barrel/slide lockup is the key. I am more inclined to believe that the extra attention paid to consistent lockup and fit with the Swiss and German guns accounted for their outstanding performance.

    I've not seen anything that compares the performance of the older and newer versions of the guns, done by people who don't have a dog in the fight. I agree, however, that gun mag tests (American Rifleman included) are not sufficient. Most gun mag tests and evaluations seem to be more focused on creating advertising revenue than giving readers truly meaningful performance evaluations.

    One friend had two P-210s, one of them came with a matching .22 top end. He eventually sold them because of severe hammer bite. Both of his P-210s came with tighter/smaller 5-shot proof targets than did mine. That told me that while the older SIGs were very impressive, they weren't all created equal. ​

    I will note, too, that Sphinx, prior to moving their production to the U.S.(where Kriss-USA -- a U.S. subsidiary of Kriss-Switzerland, the firm that bought out Sphinx Systems Ltd.,) made a number of changes to the Sphinx design, focusing on CNC production methods. These changes were done to give comparable Sphinx performance standards while requiring less-costly hand work.

    I wonder whether SIG has done the same?
     
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