SIG Takes Another Hit on the P320

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The birth and rise of the P320 in the Golden Age of gun ownership - that's the present time, minus a few years - might be a contributing factor to all those unintentional discharges. Many new gun owners, LEOs included, grew up watching GunTube and its influencers - bad habits included. The mobile internet, web cams, social sites, combined with an overwhelmingly antigun press do the rest. Don't take this as a negative comment; the more responsible, law-abiding gun owners, the merrier. But it's worth pointing it out.

That said, I love my Glocks :cool:
 
I want to see a report where the testing lab has been able to successfully and repeatedly recreate this scenario.
This is really the key, isn't it. No one has ever been able to recreate a situation where the pistol has gone off by itself without being manipulated.

Sig addressed the 320s initial issue of a drop, at a very specific angle, causing the gun to fire, when they offered/preformed their in-service upgrade. I occasionally shoot a tuned SIG 320 in competition. That pistol is carried in a Kydex holster offering passive retention. I've never had an ND/AD with it and don't really give it any thought when using it
 
They talk about how it could be vibration over the course of days being loaded. Well, I would like to see is a primed empty case get loaded into a chamber and put in a vibratory tumbler for a couple days. I may just have to do that with my one M17.

Satisfy a curiosity.
 
What did the holster manufacture get hit with?
The article makes it sound like the holster was also made by SIG--or at least sold by SIG.

"After a three-week trial, the jury concluded that New Hampshire-based Sig Sauer was negligent for selling a defective gun and holster."

Here are some court documents.


On page 3 it is stated that: "The pistol included a holster which SIG Sauer represented could be used with the P320."

On page 5 it is stated that: <The SIG P320 was> "in the holster which came with the pistol in the same SIG Sauer packaging."

They talk about how it could be vibration over the course of days being loaded.
According to the document in the link, SIG at one time included a warning about "vibration" in the P320 owner's manual. The current manual does not have such a warning.
 
Knowing (very personally these days:oops:) how the 320 action works, I'm (still) having a hard time with 'vibration' loosening the sear interface w/ the striker.
If anything -- given spring pressure rotating the sear upwards into the striker tail -- 'vibration' would seem to further impede striker release.
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I'm (still) having a hard time with 'vibration' loosening the sear interface w/ the striker.
If anything -- given spring pressure rotating the sear upwards into the striker tail -- 'vibration' would seem to further impede striker release.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out the contents of the official complaint filed on Abraham's behalf.

If you look through the document I linked, it includes the section of the SIG owner's manual that contained the warning about vibration. It's on page 9 of the document. I checked the current P320 owner's manual and although there is a similar warning in it, it no longer contains the word 'vibration'.
Is a ready to go Sig 320 perpetually on full cock?

Or does the trigger have to move to compress the spring enough to energize the striker?
Here's a video on the operation of the SIG P320.

The SIG P320 trigger does very little in the way of tensioning the striker spring, as far as I can tell. It releases the striker that is cocked by the action of the slide. But the design does have a firing pin safety to prevent the striker from hitting the primer if the sear somehow drops it.

Below is some discussion about the SIG P320 design--I'm not claiming this is what happened in the Abrahams case. This is just me talking, in general, about the design and speculating a bit.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, the firing pin safety is kind of interesting in that the trigger disables it pretty early in the trigger pull--after less than a tenth of an inch of travel. There is no tabbed trigger safety which means theoretically, a badly designed holster could tension the trigger by applying pressure to the sides of the trigger. This would have no effect on a gun with a tabbed trigger safety because trying to pull the trigger by applying friction pressure to the sides can't overcome the trigger safety to move the trigger. So let's say that a badly designed holster pushes the SIG P320 trigger back about 0.1" when the gun is holstered. The gun isn't going to fire, because the trigger is only about halfway pulled. The gun could stay like that indefinitely with the sear holding the striker in place.

So, how could the gun fire in that situation? It would require some significant amount of play between the slide and frame. If wear, or poor tolerances, or some other issue allowed significant play between the slide and frame, and something torqued or pulled the slide upwards, it could move it enough to pull the striker and sear out of engagement. The Complaint document lists the comments of a certified SIG armorer characterizing sear engagement as being about 0.25mm--less than a hundredth of an inch. Doesn't take much upward motion to turn 0.25mm from engagement to disengagement. And with a defective/damaged/worn holster tensioning the trigger enough to disable the firing pin safety, if the sear comes out of engagement with the striker, the gun will fire.

I commented in the other thread that one reason I hadn't purchased a P320, in spite of what I consider to be a number of very attractive features, is because I had noticed on the P320s I handled that the slide moves upwards noticeably when the gun is dry-fired. That's something I've not seen in other firearms and it bothered me.
 
I had noticed on the P320s I handled that the slide moves upwards noticeably when the gun is dry-fired. That's something I've not seen in other firearms and it bothered me.
I bothered me when I first noticed it on mine also. I noticed it when I was dry firing it to get used to the trigger

I went to check some of my other pistols and found that it wasn't as uncommon as I had previously believed. My S&W M&P9 has a bit a play and my Glock 22 and 19 have quite a bit of play...interestingly, these are the same pistols which will most often release the slide when I insert a full magazine "just right." This triggered a memory of a P-35 (actually a Browning Hi-power) I used to own which was the first semiauto I own where the slide would rise when I pulled the trigger to the rear. Even a Beretta 96 I had would cause the slide to rise during dry fire...although not very much
 
Interesting. None of the striker-fired pistols I have show any slide jump on dryfire. Just pulled out a few to check and if it's happening, I can't see it. I only have a couple of brands, but that amounts to a number of pistols and none of the ones I checked show it. The new P320s I've checked have showed easily detectable slide jump on dryfire. As in, I wasn't looking for it and it was immediately obvious to me that it was happening.

If you really are seeing slide jump on a striker design, you need to monitor it. Once there's enough vertical slide play that it's equal to the amount of sear engagement, that's going to present a potential function issue. Probably not a safety issue if the firing pin safety is in good shape, but you don't want the striker dropping by itself even if the gun doesn't fire when it happens.

Slide jump on a hammer fired gun is not great, but since both the sear and hammer are contained in the frame as opposed to being split between the slide and frame as in a striker fired design, it can't be a safety issue in the same way it can be with a striker fired design.

The slide drop on magazine insertion is a completely different issue. It has to do with the slide being bumped out of contact with the slide stop/release by the combination of its own inertia and the momentum of the magazine insertion. You can verify this by carefully inserting a magazine with a single dummy round and once it is locked in place, bump the heel of the grip with the heel of your hand. It doesn't have anything to do with slide play, it's just an interesting experiment in inertia and momentum.
 
These cases would have me very worried if I were the head of a firearms company and selling firearms in the US .
 
??? (!)
... but then . . . .

...and always the "if the newspaper printed it, it must be so" pièce de ré·sis·tance:
...except for the "when he picked it up again, it fired..." part. :uhoh:

But this I could believe.....
 
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I'm sure no one thinks the P320 can fire on its own inside a holster. However, I have the idea that within some models of holsters, which it would be good to identify, it can happen that a strong pressure on the backstrap of the P320 or a twisting of the P320, all things caused by external forces, could cause the pressure of the trigger by the lateral surfaces of the holster, even in the case of certain types of rigid holsters.
How is this possible? My idea is that this is possible because the trigger pad of the P320 does not have the safety lever in the middle, which in other pistol designs actually prevents trigger pulls caused by lateral forces. Furthermore, the P320's trigger pad is long and therefore has a long lever. Finally, a trigger that has 0.09'' takeup and 0.20'' total to fire, 4.5 pounds of pressure, is comparable to the trigger of a SAO pistol. Now, assuming that all the pistols I will mention have the firing pin safety (which in any case is not fundamental to my reasoning), would you ever carry a cocked and un-locked 1911 in a holster? A cocked and un-locked Browning Model 10? A cocked and un-locked Colt Hammerless? A cocked and un-locked Browning HP35? Or maybe you trust a fully cocked striker but not a fully cocked hammer?
 
The operator lacking a willingness to accept responsibility for their own actions combined with greed and a lawyer who is willing to leverage media perception
Glock sells far more pistols to LE and the general public than Sig. So why don't we have the same lawsuits?
Glock has a huge brand name compared to Sig.
Even non gun people know the name Glock, Sig not so much.

Could the poor design choice of not having a trigger safety like all other poly strikers be the root cause.
 
The operator lacking a willingness to accept responsibility for their own actions combined with greed and a lawyer who is willing to leverage media perception
Yet there are several videos of uncommanded discharges of holstered P320's.........uncommanded meaning no action by the person with the firearm.
Thats not a training issue.
 
Interesting that it happened when he bent over fully and was going back up pulling on that fellow's leg.
 
What we know: A jury verdict was entered against SIG Sauer by a Philadelphia jury in the amount of $11 million. $1 mil actual damages and $10 mil punitive.

It must be so, because a jury in one specific instance was convinced. But we all know this is not the end of the story, just as the end of the McDonald's coffee scald case is often passed over because it doesn't sell more ads.

One thing caught my eye as I read an account from New Hampshire Public Radio:

"... said Robert Zimmerman, an attorney who represented Abrahams and has also filed more than 100 similar lawsuits on behalf of other Sig Sauer gun owners who claim they were injured by their own guns." The more he can get this breathless coverage in front of potential jurors, the more he will make. That doesn't exonerate SIG, but certainly helps explain the number of cases filed. The system feeds upon itself.

If it bleeds, it leads, and deep pockets attract PI attorneys. When the two combine, it is another avenue that fits the media interest in bleeding gun makers dry.

Because this entire discussion is based upon news reports, speculation and pet theories, I am wondering what is to be gained here. What would happen if we limited discussion to persons with SIG 320 experience? Then, we would be getting it from the horse's mouth instead of the "processed" product.

Have any THR members experienced an uncommanded discharge of a 320 in their possession? Have any of us witnessed such an event personally? If so, please message me and I will reopen for your post. Otherwise, time to flush the water cooler.
 
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