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sightless pistol

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by dashootist, Dec 3, 2012.

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  1. dashootist

    dashootist Member

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    Hi.
    Met a gunsmith with a 1911 w/o sights. He build the gun and begin shooting it before he put the sights on. He liked to so much he decided to leave them off.

    The amazing thing is that he was beating, like, 80% of the competitor at the match. We were shooting steel plates. Biggest plate was 6-inch diameter. Smallest plate was only 2-inch wide. From 15 yards away!

    How does he do it without sights?

    It just looks like the ultima no-snag pistol for CC. The slide is not even cut for sights. It looks very slick.
     
  2. TAKtical

    TAKtical Member

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    Practice. Reflex shooting can be very effective if you have enough experience with a specific platform.
     
  3. 2wheels

    2wheels Member

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    Practice practice practice.

    You should try shooting a Colt New Agent sometime, it's surprising how accurate a gun with only a trench cut down the length of the slide to help you get more or less on target can be. I assume this guys 1911 didn't even have a trench though? Impressive shooting.

    I like that slick sightless look, that's part of why I bought my New Agent.
     
  4. jigglyjames29

    jigglyjames29 Member

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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  5. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    When I looked at the New Agent without sights I just couldn't get any feel for the trench set-up. I did end up going with the model that had the XS sights on it. Quick and easy to aquire and get on target with.
     
  6. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    Most of us who shoot shotguns at flying targets only use our hands and eyes to be successful. Looks like that girl in the video was doing the same
     
  7. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Psh, I do this all the time in Call of Duty!

    In all seriousness, there are actually some pistols (generally pocket pistols) that don't even come with sights. Seecamp is a good example of this.
     
  8. creeper1956

    creeper1956 Member

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    Although the alignment is somewhat course, it's still more than adequate for the distances and targets used.

    People get so hung up with trying to get a perfect sight picture that it slows them down and/or causes them to stress out to the point that their hit/group quality is diminished. We all get hung up with this issue at some point, and many never get past it to realize that, for most handgun purposes, perfect sight alignment is simply not that critical.
    Your gunsmith has, either by accident or on purpose, found out that the most rudimentary of sighting systems... meaning using the slide only as his point of reference, removes a great deal of stress from the task of aiming. His eye sees the slide, the target and their relationship... and based on previous success, if it looks about right, the brain says "OK... this is good enough, pull the trigger".

    Years ago I had a surplus 1911 with no sights... that's the way it came to me for a whopping $40 (NRA "Fair"). It was loose as a goose but a good shooter, and with no sights to strain my brain, I could find, align and hit targets with boring regularity.

    I've had a Seecamp .32ACP since 1990 (for which I waited a year to get, as they were still substantially hand made and in very high demand)... and you're correct. Larry Seecamp correctly deduced that at the distances the little gun would be used, and considering the short sight radius, sights were not needed. I can empty a magazine rather quickly into a 3 inch circle at 15 feet or less... plenty accurate for the intended purpose.

    dashootist, and anyone else if you'd like to test the theory... if you have a gun with easily removable sights... take 'em off and try shooting it some time. It's fun... and educational. :D
     
  9. Ankeny

    Ankeny Member

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    All that is required is to be able to determine the relationship of the pistol to the target. How that is accomplished is up to the individual. As a general rule, as shots become more difficult, more inputs (kinesthetic and/or visual) are required to make the hit. What do you suppose the 20% that beat the guy with the sightless pistol were doing?

    As for sight picture vs. sight alignment, there is a big difference. ;)
     
  10. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    I see a lot of folks at the range that from the looks of their target that the sights on their guns are largly ornamental anyway.
     
  11. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    This can be funny or arrogant depending on where you draw the line between useful and ornamental.
     
  12. Fishbed77

    Fishbed77 Member

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    Sounds pretty funny to me.
     
  13. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I've learned that I can shoot pretty well without seeing my sights...although it wasn't voluntarily. Both were during firearms qualification periods; once I lost the front sight on a 1911 and another was when I put on the wrong pair of glasses and couldn't see the front sight at all.

    What I learned is that extensive practice with sighted shooting allows one to learn correct index and to use the top of the slide as an aiming index...Ayoob called it the Stressfire Index in his book. This is the reason that I've never understood the usefulness of XS sights, as they offer no advantage over index shooting.

    You could learn to shoot by just indexing a sightless pistol without sights, it just take a lot more ammunition...as it can't be learned through Dry Fire
     
  14. Ankeny

    Ankeny Member

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    Me too. ;)
     
  15. tekarra

    tekarra Member

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    The late Jim Cirillo advocated learning to shoot a pistol without using the sights for quick aiming and for low light situations. It is surprising how accurate this method is with a bit of practice.
     
  16. Droid noob

    Droid noob Member

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    I had my front sight fall off during a class. The instructor saw it as a good opportunity for me to practice lol. I had to use the top right length of the slide as my "sight picture". Worked out surprisingly well.

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
     
  17. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    the bulk of my practice with my carry guns is point shooting......as i figure if i ever need to use my guns in a SD scenario, im not going to have time( or frame of mind) to line up sights and use them.

    i look at my target, bring my pistol up to eye level ( not taking my focus off the target) and shoot....never once looking at the sights.

    if you have a natural pointing pistol, you should have no problem hitting the target.

    at self defense ranges (<20' or so), i can keep all my shots COM slowfire......and i can keep all my shots on an average sized torso shooting rapid fire.
     
  18. Bobo

    Bobo Member

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    This is a video of D.R. Middlebrooks using a sightless gun, he is a trainer who is very strong on point shooting.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTQ2j4hezOQ
    BTW his wife is almost as good with a sightless gun!

    Bobo
     
  19. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine Member

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    If you have a "feel" for the gun you can do well without sights. You can even do well with your eyes closed.

    I passed the Texas concealed carry qualification (just for practice) with my eyes closed.

    eyesclosedJFrame7yards.gif

    CZ40P10ydseyesclosed.gif

    Taurus7yardseyesclosed.gif
     
  20. ku4hx

    ku4hx Member

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    The flat surface of the slide's top is a sight of sorts very similar to that of a shotgun. As you acquire the proper "sight picture" (get the rear and forward edges of the slide top to come together) the slide plane disappears. A little practice with your pet load and "Kentucky Windage" will get you into the "kill" zone.
     
  21. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Speed when a more precise shot is needed. If your using the slide to index and need to make a longer shot you need to find the sights. If your using the big dot to index you mearly need to set it in the rear to make a more precise shot.
    This is IMHO one of the best uses for a laser it makes practicing point shooting without burning throug ammo possible.
     
  22. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    Perhaps some alternative sighting technique. (There is no way he isn't aiming, i.e., a visual index of the gun upon the target, the gun.) For example, I like and use a "silhouette point"* where you line up the "silhouette" of the rear of the gun's slide with the target, not actually focusing on the sights themselves, which may be obscured for whatever reason. Not as far as 15 yards, though. :)

    *Probably not invented by, but definitely taught by, the late Jim Cirillo. See his book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights for a complete description.
     
  23. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    Anyone ever try using just a front sight, no rear on the pistol, for a point of reference for basically point shooting?
     
  24. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    In the book I cited, Cirillo would tape over the rear sight, simulating the "sightless" pistol. By reducing the tendency to "hunt" for a perfect sight picture and snapping off the shot when the perfect picture happened to "wobble" into the right spot, groups tightened.

    None of this means that I advocate taking sights off all handguns. They're still necessary, IMO. In fact, I want them as big and bold as possible without being unwieldy. But it is not always possible or desirable to depend on them.
     
  25. Bovice

    Bovice Member

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    Lol that's pretty funny.... I second the statement about sights being ornamental on most people's guns. On the rare occasion I shoot at a public per hour range, the sights are about as important as a hood emblem on an old Cadillac.

    Barely keeping shots on a 3 foot by 2 foot sheet of paper 15 feet away in a casual environment does not show any proficiency or usefulness. What it shows is an acute need for practice.
     
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