Silencer question before I fill in my Form 1

[dogtown tom]

Y'all might want to take a deep breath and pause long enough to ponder why Customs and ATF are intercepting these.
It has nothing to do with China or being "US made" and everything to do with "fuel filters" possibly being deemed a silencer by ATF.
Since ATF is intercepting these, I would bet they already consider them an NFA firearm.

It might be an expensive lesson in all things NFA.

 

[748]

The ones that screw onto a gun and can have a projectile pass unobstructed from one end to the other is probably a silencer.

I was reading around to see if anyone had actually been arrested for buying a solvent trap and all I am able to find is a guy in new jersey, a tyrannical state where silencers are banned, ordered one, so someone in doj or Homeland security ran his name probably because he was in a silencer ban state and it turns out he is a convinced felon, they passed this tidbit of information on to local law enforcement, the locals got a warrant, searched his house and the found several handguns and drugs.
That seems reasonable to me.

 

[dogtown tom]

The ones that screw onto a gun and can have a projectile pass unobstructed from one end to the other is probably a silencer.

"Probably" doesn't count. Remember, there is no such thing as an "80% silencer". And ATF NFA technical folks are the ones to determine whether your fuel filter/solvent trap is a silencer. If you believe your tube full of K baffles and an undrilled bore is not a silencer then great.....but you don't know what some guy at ATF believes unless you submit it for a determination.

I was reading around to see if anyone had actually been arrested for buying a solvent trap and all I am able to find is a guy in new jersey, a tyrannical state where silencers are banned, ordered one, so someone in doj or Homeland security ran his name probably because he was in a silencer ban state and it turns out he is a convinced felon, they passed this tidbit of information on to local law enforcement, the locals got a warrant, searched his house and the found several handguns and drugs.
That seems reasonable to me.

ATF has raided "solvent trap/fuel filter/etc" online dealers before. They don't have to charge you with a crime to make your life miserable and expensive.
Often in lieu of an arrest they will issue a "cease and desist" order. Basically a threat to cut it out buster. It puts you on the radar.

Google these guys:
Darkside Defense
Solvent Traps Etc
SD Tactical Arms
solventtrap.net

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...609a6055&mc=true&node=se27.3.478_111&rgn=div8
478.11 Muffler or silencer. Any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

So....guess who determines if your Chinese (or American made) fuel filter is a "...including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication...".? That would be ATF. Note that it doesn't say "undrilled" or capable of being "screwed to a gun", nor being able for a "projectile pass unobstructed" (ever heard of wipes?)

Further, you decide to only drill out seven of the eight baffles? That extra baffle?......its a part of a silencer.


I'm not trying to dissuade you or anyone else from building a homemade silencer on a Form 1, but everyone needs to be aware that the line between a fuel filter with an undrilled bore and an unregistered silencer isn't fuzzy, but nonexistent.

 

[748]

I was talking about individuals buying them, not the company's making them.
If you're not cranking them out, selling them, not a convinced felon, not buying them when you live in a silencer ban state then you should be fine.

 

[dogtown tom]

I was talking about individuals buying them, not the company's making them.
If you're not cranking them out, selling them, not a convinced felon, not buying them when you live in a silencer ban state then you should be fine.

Possession doesn't matter if you are the buyer or the seller, merely the one holding the bag.

 

[748]

Took 10 calendar days to go from "submitted" to "in processing" for the 22lr trash can.

 

[748]

I have a stack of old tires, some plywood and ducktape that could be repurposed to reduce the report of a firearm.
The tires wouldn't need any modification beyond setting them horizontally, ducktape them together, cover the ends with plywood with a hole in the middle, add more ducktape.
Boom, unregistered backyard utility trailer portable silencer.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I have a stack of old tires, some plywood and ducktape that could be repurposed to reduce the report of a firearm.
The tires wouldn't need any modification beyond setting them horizontally, ducktape them together, cover the ends with plywood with a hole in the middle, add more ducktape.
Boom, unregistered backyard utility trailer portable silencer.

Such devices aren't considered silencers, as they do not attach to the firearm.

 

[dogtown tom]

I have a stack of old tires, some plywood and ducktape that could be repurposed to reduce the report of a firearm.
The tires wouldn't need any modification beyond setting them horizontally, ducktape them together, cover the ends with plywood with a hole in the middle, add more ducktape.
Boom, unregistered backyard utility trailer portable silencer.

Yeah, this idea is nothing new.
I forget what gun forum I read it on, but recall a story about a fellow who built a "range" in his basement. Went so far to make a nice rack to hold old tires upright to help cut down on the noise.

Worked fine for a while until one day he noticed more smoke than usual. Seems about halfway down his row of tires mice/rats/assorted vermin had built a nest. Sparks from his shooting ignited the nest. Much hilarity ensued.

 

[748]

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...609a6055&mc=true&node=se27.3.478_111&rgn=div8
478.11 Muffler or silencer. Any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

So....guess who determines if your Chinese (or American made) fuel filter is a "...including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication...".? That would be ATF. Note that it doesn't say capable of being "screwed to a gun".
.

Such devices aren't considered silencers, as they do not attach to the firearm.

I know that, but according to dogtown a stack of tires, a metro express barrel extension, all the dual use bits the aft doesn't even want to try to regulate are all silencers.

 

[dogtown tom]

I know that, but according to dogtown a stack of tires, a metro express barrel extension, all the dual use bits the aft doesn't even want to try to regulate are all silencers.

I never said anything of the sort.
You might want to work on your reading comprehension and try reading you some ATF regs.

 

[748]

You said a silencer doesn't even have to attach to a gun to be considered a silencer.

 

[dogtown tom]

You said a silencer doesn't even have to attach to a gun to be considered a silencer.

It doesn't. I posted the ATF definition of "silencer" above. Call them and tell them why they are wrong.

 

[748]

You posted the definition and then you said it doesn't matter if it attaches to a gun.

 

[Elkins45]

I think the key word in that definition is portable. Otherwise shooting a gun inside your home would make your living room an illegal silencer because it reduces the noise to people on the street.

 

[dogtown tom]

You posted the definition and then you said it doesn't matter if it attaches to a gun.

AGAIN, WHAT YOU FAIL TO COMPREHEND...........I posted the definition of "silencer" from ATF and federal law.
A silencer, as defined by federal law, is an NFA firearm BY ITSELF.......doesn't need to be attached to a gun.

If you disagree with that..... write your Congressman.

Or you can continue to post nonsense and you'll keep getting educated.

 

[dogtown tom]

 

[748]

But why did you say it doesn't matter if it attaches to the gun?
Use your words. I know what the ATF says.
Or if you didn't understand it and you do now that's cool too.

 

[MachIVshooter]

But why did you say it doesn't matter if it attaches to the gun?
Use your words. I know what the ATF says.
Or if you didn't understand it and you do now that's cool too.

What Tom is saying is that an item which meets the definition of a silencer is a silencer whether it is attached to a firearm or not. Part of meeting that definition, though, is that it needs to be capable of attaching to a firearm. The "portable" language is relative/practical, of course; anything is portable, but something that requires both hands or more than one person to pick up and move, and which may be several times the size/weight of the firearm, is not practically portable in the context of firearms.

 

[dogtown tom]

But why did you say it doesn't matter if it attaches to the gun?

Well, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T!!!!!
Read the definition in ATF regs and tell us where it says anything about "attaches to the gun".

Use your words.

I did, read them again or have another person read them to you.

I know what the ATF says.

Then why the nonsense?

Or if you didn't understand it and you do now that's cool too.

Nothing I've written has changed and I stand by it.
That you don't understand saddens me.

 

[dogtown tom]

...Part of meeting that definition, though, is that it needs to be capable of attaching to a firearm.

No, it doesn't. A silencer is still a silencer even if you lack a means to attach it. Silencer are sold/transferred every day with no mounting device included.

The "portable" language is relative/practical, of course; anything is portable, but something that requires both hands or more than one person to pick up and move, and which may be several times the size/weight of the firearm, is not practically portable in the context of firearms.

As evidenced by that ATF letter above, they took into consideration portability and whether the device is attached. But neither "portability' or "attached" are used in defining what is/is not a silencer. Assuming that portability or not being attached are criteria for determining whether a particular design is not a silencer is dangerous.

 

[MachIVshooter]

No, it doesn't. A silencer is still a silencer even if you lack a means to attach it. Silencer are sold/transferred every day with no mounting device included.

Just because the parts aren't assembled onto the silencer or in your possession doesn't mean its not capable of attaching to a firearm/designed to be attached to a firearm, which is clearly a defining criteria.

 

[dogtown tom]

Just because the parts aren't assembled onto the silencer or in your possession doesn't mean its not capable of attaching to a firearm/designed to be attached to a firearm, which is clearly a defining criteria.

"designed to be attached" is different than "capable of being attached"..........a plastic 2ltr bottle is capable of being attached, but isn't a silencer until it is attached.

 

[MachIVshooter]

"designed to be attached" is different than "capable of being attached"..........a plastic 2ltr bottle is capable of being attached, but isn't a silencer until it is attached.

No disagreement there, which is why we understand that one is a silencer by itself, the other only if used as such in much the same way that a weapon is a weapon, but a tool or other implement that is not ordinarily a weapon becomes a weapon under the law if used as one. The corollary, though, is that something which cannot be attached to a portable firearm obviously wasn't designed to be attached, and if it cannot be, then it is not a silencer. A stack of tires or a 55 gallon barrel with a hole through both ends was not designed to be attached, nor can it be (at least in any way that would leave the firearm a portable firearm, which is part of the definition of silencer), ergo ATF's determinations that such things are not silencers. The language in the very determination letter you are citing to support your argument is specifically referencing "attached" and "portable" as defining characteristics, "attached" more than once. That's about as clear as it gets with ATF.

And for the record, simply affixing a bottle to the muzzle of a firearm does not constitute the making of a silencer. It could certainly be considered a solvent trap, which is not a regulated item. It doesn't become a silencer until it is "....... redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler", which would, at minimum, mean having a hole out the other end in line with the bore.