simunition question

[ccsniper]

Okay, I just watched special ops mission, and the beginning says that simunition is only legal for military and police. Is this true? Can simunition be made at home?

 

[Tim the student]

I don't know about the legalities, but it isn't anything I would want to try at home. Too many chances for error for my comfort.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

the beginning says that simunition is only legal for military and police.

Are you sure it said that? I just looked up an episode online and it said:
"They are loaded with Simunition, a non-lethal alternative to live ammuntion, that leaves a visible mark on impact. Available only to military and elite law enforcement, Simunition is the closest thing to the real deal."

There was no mention of the legality of Simunitions. There's a huge difference between something only being available due to manufacturer policies and something being illegal.

 

[ants]

It's a training tool, not a non-lethal paintball.

GD-OTS (the manufacturer of Simunition products) will sell to private training agencies in addition to law enforcement and military, but only if GD-OTS finds that the trainer understands and executes appropriate safety protocol. This is a matter of policy only. The purpose of restricting sales is to avoid lawsuits by untrained people thinking that it's like paintball and you can shoot each other with it.

Do a search on GD-OTS and its Simunition Operations division for more information. They have 6 different products lines, for different types of training and requiring different levels of safety gear. Some require ear/eye protection only, others require head, throat and groin protection (ouch!).

 

[Broken11b]

well i sure hope its legal, ive bought a case or two before. theres more than one manufacturer of simunitions, theyre out there. and i would not recommend making your own, way too many variables that can end badly.

 

[PandaBearBG]

Even if you could make it at home and I was your best friend, I sure as hell wouldn't let you shoot me with your special recipe homemade simunition.

 

[ccsniper]

Are you sure it said that? I just looked up an episode online and it said:
"They are loaded with Simunition, a non-lethal alternative to live ammuntion, that leaves a visible mark on impact. Available only to military and elite law enforcement, Simunition is the closest thing to the real deal."

There was no mention of the legality of Simunitions. There's a huge difference between something only being available due to manufacturer policies and something being illegal.

your right it states not available instead of legal.

I wasn't going to use it on people, me and some friends want a shoot house without using paintball guns. the things shot will be silhouettes NOT HUMANS. I would never point any thing home made at another person.

 

[happygeek]

Make sure you check your barrel after using UTM rounds before you go live! We had a guy get a UTM round stuck in a rifle barrel without realizing it, lucky it got caught before any live ammo was fired. I had a huge issue with UTMs jamming on me. Other than that, good training tool.

 

[happygeek]

Was posting from my phone earlier, quick edit:

We were using UTM (Ultimate Training Munitions) in our rifles and using sim rounds in our pistols for that training exercise. With the sim rounds you swap out the barrel, with the UTMs you just have to swap out the bolt on the rifle. The UTMs are basically using just a primer, says their maximum range is only about 75 yards. They ran kinda dirty, had to clean the rifle out real good after only 50 rounds or so and, as aforementioned, kept jamming on me and one got stuck in a guy's barrrel. Simple enough to push it out with a clearing rod, but make sure you look down your barrel and ensure it's clear after using UTMs.

I didn't have any issues with the sim rounds we were using in our pistols. No jams or anything. I had to transition to the pistol litterally every other target due to UTM jams in the rifle, so, good training on that drill I guess.

You would not want to get shot with either. Both would sting pretty good and I've heard that UTMs can penetrate slightly if they hit exposed skin.

 

[zminer]

@happygeek -

I've seen a few episodes of "Special Ops Mission" and it seems like jams occur fairly often. I wondered if this was due to the Simunition, or just from the wear and tear of being in a simulated mission. Sounds like it may indeed be the rounds themselves.

 

[Owen]

neither Simunitions nor UTM are as reliable as actual ammunition.

As far as availablity, neither company sells to the general public becuase of liability issues.

 

[BoomBoom25]

Just watched spec ops mission last night

I love that show and as far as using simunitions goes we civies can use it if we go to a training facility like Gunsite or Blackwater.Which is very fun if youve never been I highly suggest you try and go. You do also need to be sure to wear full protective gear playing with simunitions unless you wont to maybe be seriously injured. Heck a good paintball gun fired at close range can break the skin. My neighbors kid always wonted to shoot my paintball gun but his dad didnt trust him. That is until he finally got tired of telling him no. So I went and got my gun showed him how to work it, load it and everything. I even let him shoot me in the butt 1 time and from about 10yds which was ok but, when he was finished shooting I asked him to be sure all the paintballs were out of the gun and he said they were. So we started to go inside and as we got to the door I heard a very distinct pop of air and felt something that felt like 20 bees stinging me at the same time. Let me tell you that hurts and when i looked down at my leg there was blood coming through my pants leg. Well his dad saw what happened and he got into some serious trouble. He never shot my paintball gun again.​

 

[CWL]

Don't know what that show is, but I get to train with it here in N. CA. You don't have to be LEO/Military but it you do need to go thru training from Simunitions to get access to their products.

There is a real danger because simunitions are fired out of real firearms modified to fire only simunition rounds (liquid soap bullets). I believe that people still get injured and killed from mishandling real firearms during training. As a safety precaution, we wear vests and helmets along with eyes during training.

IMHO, it is much better than paintball for training because they feel, weigh, load/unload and behave like actual firearms. Adds another level to the seriousness of your training.

 

[zminer]

The mystery of Simunition's legality seems to be cleared up, then. It's probably just a ploy of the producers to make it seem like the operations being undertaken in "Special Ops Mission" are more dangerous, or at least more exclusive, than they really are.

 

[harrygunner]

It's a company policy, not a law. In recent years, I've had trainers tell me they had to sign an agreement to limit students to police, etc. I've received such training. Don't know if I got in before my trainer signed an agreement, but he does apply limits now.

Too bad since it's a real eye opener. I read lots of posts where I suspect the writer to change their thoughts after a single Simunitions battle.

We were all told to stow our real weapons, then wanded with a metal detector before entering the shooting area. The "attacker" was covered from head to toe with a suit and helmet that was very thick.

Really helps one understand the need for shooting while MOVING.

 

[berrieberrie]

I've seen a few episodes of "Special Ops Mission" and it seems like jams occur fairly often. I wondered if this was due to the Simunition, or just from the wear and tear of being in a simulated mission. Sounds like it may indeed be the rounds themselves.

+1. The Simunition rounds contain (what amounts to) a reduced load, so they are more prone to jams because they may not always cycle the slide successfully. In my experience, you have to hold the gun really, really steady.

 

[swineflu]

Why did people have the jams....were they using the zinc cased rounds, or the new aluminum. The aluminum basically never jams

 

[Shadow 7D]

It might also be a liability issue, when I was in the army as a medic the day after one of our troops (company) did Sim training many would be in for sickcall because they were so bruised up, those things are dangerous if the people using them don't understand the limits of the gear. I would hate to see what would happen if someone were shot in the face, protection or not.

 

[fireflyfather]

The Simunition rounds contain (what amounts to) a reduced load, so they are more prone to jams because they may not always cycle the slide successfully. In my experience, you have to hold the gun really, really steady.

They make them for revolvers? That might be interested for a snubbie/BUG class or similar training.

 

[John Parker]

You do also need to be sure to wear full protective gear playing with simunitions unless you wont to maybe be seriously injured.

Understatement of the night. Sim rounds are downright painful.

 

[chevyforlife21]

they sell that stuff in cheaper then dirt

 

[HorseSoldier]

Can simunition be made at home?

Real Simunitions -- no. They're based on a 9mm case, but are subcaliber, requiring the use of a special barrel for pistols (in addition to also dealing with the very reduced recoil in terms of cycling). I've been told, but never tried it, that if you try to fire them in a standard 9mm action, the fixed plastic sabot that is part of the cartridge jams in the action.

UTM has already been discussed by other posters.

I didn't have any issues with the sim rounds we were using in our pistols. No jams or anything. I had to transition to the pistol litterally every other target due to UTM jams in the rifle, so, good training on that drill I guess.

If it makes you feel any better, that's an improvement over Simunition uppers for M4s, where you had to use the proprietary clear plastic magazines. The feed lips on those would crack if you even looked at asphalt or something else hard while holding one, and then you'd wind up with a magazine that might hold anything from maybe 5-10 rounds. And the action would jam pretty frequently, even with good mags.

We always had to watch to keep sure guys wouldn't start gaming it and playing paintball when they figured out that their M9s were much more reliable and -- usually -- had bigger magazine capacity than their M4s (and the same effective range). Nothing like seeing a guy up in the turret of a gun truck rolling into a MOUT site waving his pistol around to prompt some head scratching and/or spot correcting . . .

It might also be a liability issue, when I was in the army as a medic the day after one of our troops (company) did Sim training many would be in for sickcall because they were so bruised up, those things are dangerous if the people using them don't understand the limits of the gear. I would hate to see what would happen if someone were shot in the face, protection or not.

2004 timeframe we used them a lot with just eye-pro rather than the Darth Vader helmets or other full face protection, especially for night training where guys were trying to use NVGs and stuff. I saw, and probably inflicted (unintentionally) some pretty nasty face wounds -- busted lips, bloody noses, etc. Senior NCO leadership got involved on that one after seeing about half an ODA with sims hits somewhere on their face and uncomfortably close to their eyes.

They make them for revolvers?

I believe they do. Local LEOs sometimes used the same training areas we did and I think I remember seeing some .38 cal Sims brass after one of their training days.

 

[coloradokevin]

Understatement of the night. Sim rounds are downright painful.

+1

Anyone who thinks that these things are just fancy paintballs sure hasn't been hit by one! Sim rounds can make you bleed without much trouble at all, and one of my shift partners was actually hospitalized once after he took a simunition round to the neck in a training exercise. For my part of it, I've bled from the leg after being struck with one of these rounds THROUGH a pair of BDU pants.

As far as legalities are concerned, I agree with the other posters in saying that Simunitions are not legally restricted (at least not anywhere that I'm aware of), but the company won't sell to civilians.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

they sell that stuff in cheaper then dirt

Do you have a link to their listing for Simunition?

 

[woodybrighton2]

liability for simunition use think total nightmare.
company is doing the right thing