Single action, hammer down

[RX-79G]

As was very briefly discussed at the end of the Chamber Empty thread, another solution to concerns about pocket carry is to carry a single action only, hammer fired handgun with the hammer decocked.

This used to be a very normal way to carry 1911s, Colt Pony, etc. It is exactly the way the Beretta 950 was designed to be carried, as it originally didn't have a safety. Same thing with all single action revolvers.

The pluses:
1. It is almost impossible to accidentally fire a gun with a hammer and a single action trigger. It is like having a really long, heavy safety lever.

2. You can draw and fire the handgun with one hand, which you can't do with an empty chamber.

Downside:
1. You've got to decock. A Beretta 950 can be loaded without racking the slide, but a Sig 938 or Colt Pony can't. So care must be taken. However, once you get the gun loaded, it is pretty darn inert and could remain that way day to day.

2. It isn't fast. This should be obvious, but worth stating. It may even be slightly slower than an Israeli draw. However, you could cock while still in your pocket.


This only makes sense for hammer fired handguns. There are some striker fired Walthers that can decocked, like the PPS, but you still need to partial cock the slide with the off hand. In a fight, you don't want to try to get this right - it is too easy to screw it up and jam the gun.

This also is only for guns designed to be carried with the hammer full down - inertial firing pins (yes, Browning designed inertial pins so the 1911 could be carried decocked). Some of the old hammer fired .22s have full length firing pins, and half cock is not drop safe.


A related, but often highly confused carry method is to carry a DA revolver with the NEXT chamber in line empty, but with the chamber under the hammer loaded. The idea here is that the trigger needs to be pulled twice before the gun fires. A friend kept his nightstand gun like that so it couldn't be used against him easily, since the criminal would assume the gun empty after the first click.

Obviously, this eats precious capacity in a revolver, but it has its place.



All of this isn't for everyone, but it allows more casual handling with greatly decreased risk of ND, while still being a one handed weapon. And that's appropriate to some situations.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

As most probably know my TP9SA can be carried with a round in the chamber but decocked. This would require a half inch to one inch press check, or rack of the slide in order to recock. For most this would require two hands.

Which is why I carry this gun cocked with a round in the chamber.

On the nightstand it stays with a loaded mag but no round in the chamber since it's not on my person.

 

[200Apples]

.
Of course any recent-manufacture SA wheelgun will have some version of a transfer bar safety... allowing safe carry with six loaded and the hammer down.

But those newer guns aren't my cup of tea since I learned on an Old Model Blackhawk. I prefer the older way of doing it, even if it means having one less cartridge at the ready: From half-cock, load one, skip one, load four... then cock the hammer and lower it on the empty chamber.

On the other hand, since the 1911 was also mentioned, I will only carry the 1911 with a round also IN the chamber, cocked, and locked. Different gun designs require different procedures. That said, I know very little about handguns other than SA Rugers and 1911-pattern pistols. D'oh.

 

[Coyote3855]

.
Of course any recent-manufacture SA wheelgun will have some version of a transfer bar safety... allowing safe carry with six loaded and the hammer down.

But those newer guns aren't my cup of tea since I learned on an Old Model Blackhawk. I prefer the older way of doing it, even if it means having one less cartridge at the ready: From half-cock, load one, skip one, load four... then cock the hammer and lower it on the empty chamber.

On the other hand, since the 1911 was also mentioned, I will only carry the 1911 with a round also IN the chamber, cocked, and locked. Different gun designs require different procedures. That said, I know very little about handguns other than SA Rugers and 1911-pattern pistols. D'oh.

Yeah, I think the OP is talking about single action semi-autos, not revolvers.

 

[Chuck R.]

It's not a method I'd use or advocate:

1. Chance for a AD while lowering a hammer (you can put part of your left thumb between the slide and hammer, while lowering)
2. Chances of slipping while cocking a hammer, granted modern guns have half-cocks and FP blocks. Still why would I want to introduce another movement to make a pistol ready to fire?

IMHO, if you're nervous or don't like carrying a SA semi in Condition 1 (C&L), then get a DA/SA with a decocking function, DA only, or something along the lines of the HK LEM.

BTW, how do you de-cock a PPS with a round in the chamber?? Or did you mean P99??

Chuck

 

[RX-79G]

I was talking about any single action gun: revolver or semi.

I also mentioned a related idea for DA revolvers, and DA revolvers only.



The point of all this is not an alternative to Condition 1 carry, but an alternative to Condition 3 where the user needs to put the gun in a pocket, purse or pack and still wants it to be quickly usable. It isn't a preferred carry method, just a better alternative to Condition 3.


The PPS has a thing where you can decock by removing the backstrap. I'm not suggesting that, or suggesting decocking the P99QA or TP9SA as as carry method, since you will likely screw up trying to cock it with the slide.



Personally, I usually carry DA/SA autos hammer down, but I sometimes carry a 950 because it is so small without the unnecessary holster.

 

[BobWright]

This works for me:




'Nuff said.


Bob Wright

 

[Chuck R.]

I was talking about any single action gun: revolver or semi.

I also mentioned a related idea for DA revolvers, and DA revolvers only.



The point of all this is not an alternative to Condition 1 carry, but an alternative to Condition 3 where the user needs to put the gun in a pocket, purse or pack and still wants it to be quickly usable. It isn't a preferred carry method, just a better alternative to Condition 3.


The PPS has a thing where you can decock by removing the backstrap. I'm not suggesting that, or suggesting decocking the P99QA or TP9SA as as carry method, since you will likely screw up trying to cock it with the slide.



Personally, I usually carry DA/SA autos hammer down, but I sometimes carry a 950 because it is so small without the unnecessary holster.

Thanks,

I completely forgot about that, since I "deactivated" it when I 1st got my PPS M1.

Chuck

 

[gbran]

I'm not sure I understand 1911 chambered carry with the hammer down.

I especially don't understand how this relates to series 70 & series 80 Colts.

The only decocker on my 1911's have is my thumb and if I slip, the gun will fire simultaneously with tearing my thumb off.

Am I missing something?

 

[RX-79G]

Yes, the point of the thread - offering an alternative to Condition 3.

Food for thought:

 

[JTQ]

A different viewpoint, and no doubt an over dramatized Condition 2, but I suspect most users of single action auto's prefer either Condition 1 or Condition 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2-1IZk1A28

 

[MICHAEL T]

Years back many people keep the 1911 loaded hammer down at home or carried that way . Remember the 1911 replaced a SA revolver the cavalry had used for a long time . Browning never in tended it to be carried C&L every where. Military even then empty chamber . Could load when contact was possible. The 1911 USGI hammer was easy to cock on the draw and many people were still familiar with SA pistols
In the early 1980's Peterson publishing company Had a single issue magazine devoted to the 1911. It had a article on carry and keeping you 1911 loaded and hammer down. Ready for use. So was still a acceptable in to early 1980's

Now days with those huge ugly grip safety's and bobbed hammers . Near impossible to draw and cock a hammer . I can even to day draw and thumb cock my USGI Colt Pretty quick . It Can be done even under stress .I had to for real once.

As a MP Patrol Supervisor during my military career . I always carried one chamber hammer down . The Policy was empty chamber and 5 rounds. If some one saw you with a C&L their be hell to pay . Hammer down nothing said . Out of sight out of mind

Policy was Stupid and good way to get shot. Plus we were only issued 1 mag from arms room . I carried my own 2 extra mags loaded with 230 ball.

I think Cooper ,Taylor , and other ,1911 is Thor's hammer , writers ,plus combat games . Made the C&L carry. What is today. That and the ruining of the 1911 with the grips safety's bobbed hammer and all the other game ad ons. None really needed for a SD pistol. My 1941 Colt USGI serves me as well today as it did those that carried it and perhaps even used it in times of war.

 

[RX-79G]

The dangers of decocking are a big preoccupation, seemingly not shared by anyone with a revolver. DA/SA autos from Europe are still coming out with new designs with no decocker.

It really comes down to whether you are more afraid of decocking in a controlled environment or trying to load the pistol with two hands in a fight.


A bunch of us decock DA guns with no decockers at IDPA, and it isn't a problem.

 

[JTQ]

There certainly is a use for all the available conditions for single action autos. I'm sure at some point in my life I'll find a need for Condition 2 and make it work just fine. However, so far I've not found a need for Condition 2.

I decock DA revolvers all the time. I do it one handed and think nothing of it. I seldom decock 1911's. I can do it, but it's not as simple as a DA revolver and there really is very little reason for me to do it.

It really comes down to whether you are more afraid of decocking in a controlled environment or trying to load the pistol with two hands in a fight.

Here's a thread from one of our forum members on his experience with Condition 2.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441761

 

[RX-79G]

Yup. You can screw it up, especially if you are't doing it the smart way with a finger in front of the hammer. Is it time to link to all the holstering NDs with Glocks to put some perspective on this?

 

[JTQ]

Everything is risk/reward.

The reward for being able to carry your Glock in a holster generally outweighs the risk.

The reward for carrying a single action auto with the hammer down on a loaded round is not very big. While the risk of lowering the hammer on a 1911 is not huge, you're still defeating all the designed in safety devices to get there.

You certainly may have a regular situation where hammer down on a loaded round carry outweighs the risk. My guess is most people don't.

 

[RX-79G]

Everything is risk/reward.

The reward for being able to carry your Glock in a holster generally outweighs the risk.

The reward for carrying a single action auto with the hammer down on a loaded round is not very big. While the risk of lowering the hammer on a 1911 is not huge, you're still defeating all the designed in safety devices to get there.

You certainly may have a regular situation where hammer down on a loaded round carry outweighs the risk. My guess is most people don't.

What "designed in safety devices"? Browning has two patents on the 1911 for devices that made lowering the hammer safer.

 

[JTQ]

What "designed in safety devices"? Browning has two patents on the 1911 for devices that made lowering the hammer safer.

To get to Condition 2, you need to disengage both the grip safety, and thumb safety. If you have a firing pin safety equipped 1911 you'll also defeat that safety to get to Condition 2.

 

[RX-79G]

Those are the same safeties you disengage to unload the pistol, too.

 

[JTQ]

Those are the same safeties you disengage to unload the pistol, too.

Only if by "unload the pistol" you mean shooting it.

The only safety you need to disengage to unload the pistol is the thumb safety.

 

[RX-79G]

Only if by "unload the pistol" you mean shooting it.

The only safety you need to disengage to unload the pistol is the thumb safety.

While I'm sure a very few people find a way to hold a 1911 in such a way that the grip safety isn't depressed, most everyone else firmly holds the grip in the normal way when working the slide. This is as advised in all the 1911 manuals.

But if you'd like to post a manual that shows your technique, I'm sure everyone would be interested.


But, again, this is not a 1911 thread, or about carrying Condition 2 in preference to Condition 1. It is about taking advantage of SA guns to make them as inert as Condition 3 while still retaining the ability to fire with one hand. In some, but not all cases, this may involve decocking.

Loading, unloading, holstering and even mechanical decocking are not foolproof, and neither is manual decocking. But it isn't brain surgery, it isn't automatically unsafe, and it is practiced widely without incident. While it is currently treated like wearing white after Labor Day, it is a very normal gun handling procedure that everyone should be comfortable doing safely. As previously stated, the benefit of a decocking in a controlled environment is a very inert handgun which can withstand a lot in a very uncontrolled environment. That is a worthwhile trade off for some uses and users.

 

[Jim K]

"Of course any recent-manufacture SA wheelgun will have some version of a transfer bar safety.."

Hmmm. A company called, I think, Colt, makes an SA revolver with no transfer bar or other safety (except a worthless safety notch). Safety devices on guns are required by law only for imports.

Jim

 

[RX-79G]

The NAA Minis don't have a transfer either, but they do allow a different method for carrying a full cylinder.

So I certainly agree it doesn't make sense that all recent SA revolvers have transfer bars.

 

[Malamute]

The only decocker on my 1911's have is my thumb and if I slip, the gun will fire simultaneously with tearing my thumb off.

Unlikely it will remove thumb unless the thumb isn't well attached.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re8oMnGbnh4

 

[pezo]

^^^. Yeah but still. If your thumb slips decocking a revolver you will get a discharge. Hopefully you would have had the revolver pointed in a "safe" direction. On a 1911 that slide coming back wood hurt! Never thought of that. Ouch. Or after watching that video maybe not. Wow. Learned something.