Single Action vs. Double Action
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mikemyers
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Aha! Someone already suggested I buy that book, and now I know who it must have been!!!
Yes, I have it, one of the newer editions - the type is easy to read, but they did a poor job of reproducing the photographs. I "cheated" though - started with chapter 10, "Shooting Revolvers Double Action, Combining Accuracy with Speed". I really need to take the time of just reading the book through from the beginning.
I'm not going to even start to type what I think about all this - will just copy from a web page:
World Record Still Stands
McGivern's Guinness world record for "The greatest rapid-fire feat," set on August 20, 1932 at the Lead Club Range in South Dakota, still stands. This feat consisted of "firing two times from 15 feet five shots which could be covered by a silver half-dollar piece in .45 of a second."
To name just a few more:
McGivern could break six simultaneously hand thrown clay pigeons (standard trap targets) in the air before they hit the ground.
He could hit a tin can hand thrown 20 feet in the air six times before it hit the ground.
He could shoot-drive a tack or nail into wood.
He could shoot the spots out of playing cards, or even split a playing card edge on.
McGivern could hit a dime on the fly.
All of these executed with either right or left hand, using a factory Smith & Wesson M&P double action revolver, purportedly his favorite handgun.
McGivern's Guinness world record for "The greatest rapid-fire feat," set on August 20, 1932 at the Lead Club Range in South Dakota, still stands. This feat consisted of "firing two times from 15 feet five shots which could be covered by a silver half-dollar piece in .45 of a second."
To name just a few more:
McGivern could break six simultaneously hand thrown clay pigeons (standard trap targets) in the air before they hit the ground.
He could hit a tin can hand thrown 20 feet in the air six times before it hit the ground.
He could shoot-drive a tack or nail into wood.
He could shoot the spots out of playing cards, or even split a playing card edge on.
McGivern could hit a dime on the fly.
All of these executed with either right or left hand, using a factory Smith & Wesson M&P double action revolver, purportedly his favorite handgun.
Thanks again for recommending the book. I love the way you make my life miserable!
(I tried, and failed, to find an old video of his shooting; maybe I'll find one eventually.... The best I could find was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u97RJQYuiBA but it doesn't have video of Ed actually shooting.)
Ed was many things, but a professional photographer he was not...
The images were for the most part made using an old-at-the-time Kodak box camera. The book's subsequent editors decided to leave them as they were. Something within me is in agreement.
They're is - so far as I know - only one relatively short movie clip showing Ed actually shooting. I'll try to find you a link.
BCRider
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Back when I suggested a nice even build to move the trigger back I never envisioned anyone taking 4 to 5 seconds to do so. With such a slow build of course any slight roughness in the trigger action will show up and stymie your efforts.
Try some dry firing where you pace the pressure build to complete the trigger travel fully back over about 1/2 to 3/4 of a second. If you can not quite get to more than the "o" of the second "one" in "one thousand one... "before it's fully back that's about right.
The upside is that your finger won't get as tired as fast and you won't be so sensitive to any little glitches in the trigger motion. But more importantly you'll get a flow going. As it sits now I'd say that you're getting far too OCD about each little aspect of grip and finger pulling. I suspect that trying to focus on too many aspects is causing you to break up any flow you might have.
By pulling thru at this sort of pace any side pressure effects will become more easily noticed as well. And that also means that any little changes you make such as moving your finger on the trigger or altering how you flex the joints during the pull will show up more easily.
It almost seems like you're trying to analyze the motion of each joint of your trigger finger with the long pulls. At some point you need to stop breaking down the whole thing into little separate bits and just go with a finger motion that is natural and easily repeatable and a grip style that feels like you've got a good even pressure contact with both hands on the gun. And in fact you WANT some side pressure on the grips. If it's all fore and aft the gun is still free to move around. The goal is to have even pressure around the whole circumference of the grip surface. Then the gun is more stable in your grip and less pressure is needed to keep it that way. And that translates to easier shooting and an easier time isolating your trigger finger motion from the rest of your hands.
Try some dry firing where you pace the pressure build to complete the trigger travel fully back over about 1/2 to 3/4 of a second. If you can not quite get to more than the "o" of the second "one" in "one thousand one... "before it's fully back that's about right.
The upside is that your finger won't get as tired as fast and you won't be so sensitive to any little glitches in the trigger motion. But more importantly you'll get a flow going. As it sits now I'd say that you're getting far too OCD about each little aspect of grip and finger pulling. I suspect that trying to focus on too many aspects is causing you to break up any flow you might have.
By pulling thru at this sort of pace any side pressure effects will become more easily noticed as well. And that also means that any little changes you make such as moving your finger on the trigger or altering how you flex the joints during the pull will show up more easily.
It almost seems like you're trying to analyze the motion of each joint of your trigger finger with the long pulls. At some point you need to stop breaking down the whole thing into little separate bits and just go with a finger motion that is natural and easily repeatable and a grip style that feels like you've got a good even pressure contact with both hands on the gun. And in fact you WANT some side pressure on the grips. If it's all fore and aft the gun is still free to move around. The goal is to have even pressure around the whole circumference of the grip surface. Then the gun is more stable in your grip and less pressure is needed to keep it that way. And that translates to easier shooting and an easier time isolating your trigger finger motion from the rest of your hands.
BCRider said:
Mike - I was under the impression you were taking this kind of time between shots. If this represents the time between the start of the trigger pull and the shot released, I'd agree that too slow a trigger pull can be counter-productive. It doesn't follow that very slow is very smooth. Think of placing a completely-filled glass of water on a table. If you relax and simply "just do it", you probably won't spill any water. OTOH, if you're thinking about how full it is, and do the placement carefully and ssslllloooooowwwwwlllly, you'll likely spill some, despite your best efforts.
Once you start the trigger stroke, continue the stroke at a speed that allows you to follow through the smoothest. That sweet spot is more like in the 1second-ish range. "Just do it". Just don't jerk or yank the trigger.
On McGivern's book: It's a great resource, but, man, that Victorian prose is exhausting to read, IMO.
The book would be much more accessible and helpful to the general public if it were edited in modern prose. It'd be about a third its size, too.
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mikemyers
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I've noticed every single one of the "problems" you guys have mentioned from actuating the trigger so slowly. Until now, I assumed that was what I was supposed to be experiencing, and overcoming. I'll change the timing to around one second, starting today.
I always figured that when I got to where I could do something slowly, it is relatively easy to start speeding things up. If nothing else, I think I've learned to isolate the movement of my trigger finger from everything else going on. It should be easy for me to do the same things, but faster.
Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting ---- I immediately noticed that the wording was "very strange". Maybe at the time the book was written, this is how people wrote? For me, it made it more difficult to read and understand. I still intend to read it cover-to-cover. As for the photographs, once I consider that they're from a box camera, and probably just snapshots, it all makes sense. When I first picked up the book, knowing nothing about Ed McGivern, I thought the photo reproductions were awful - but all things considered, they are history. I'd still like to see the video, if you can find a link Murf - but I guess considering the technology at the time, I shouldn't expect too much. As for the link, not even the guys at the NRA museum know where to find it....
I always figured that when I got to where I could do something slowly, it is relatively easy to start speeding things up. If nothing else, I think I've learned to isolate the movement of my trigger finger from everything else going on. It should be easy for me to do the same things, but faster.
Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting ---- I immediately noticed that the wording was "very strange". Maybe at the time the book was written, this is how people wrote? For me, it made it more difficult to read and understand. I still intend to read it cover-to-cover. As for the photographs, once I consider that they're from a box camera, and probably just snapshots, it all makes sense. When I first picked up the book, knowing nothing about Ed McGivern, I thought the photo reproductions were awful - but all things considered, they are history. I'd still like to see the video, if you can find a link Murf - but I guess considering the technology at the time, I shouldn't expect too much. As for the link, not even the guys at the NRA museum know where to find it....
mikemyers said:
Just to clarify: Don't force a trigger pull into any particular time frame. Just let it happen the best it can. The point earlier was that too slow is often as bad as too fast. A smooth, consistent and relaxed stroke are the primary aims. The time it takes to get this is secondary.
mikemyers said:
It's written in Victorian prose. What we recognize as modern prose was largely introduced my Hemmingway. The Sun Also Rises and A Farewell to Arms were published in the late 1920s, the same time as Theodore Dreiser's An American Tragedy. Dreiser's work was typical of the day, as was McGivern's (though published 10 years later). By comparison, Hemmingway's style was stunningly innovative, and we now more or less see it as a standard style.
BCRider
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That's exactly what I was trying to convey. The timing, other than generally, isn't the point. The goal is a smooth and natural motion.
I've been shooting a lot of revolver in speed matches and regular bullseye plinking sessions. So for ME at this time a "slow, smooth, natural" DA pull is around a half second or slightly longer. But a few years ago I'd have been closer to a full second or slightly over.
My idea of fast for my match shooting where the targets are 8 to 12 yards away is around 1/3 of a second. At that speed the ultimate accuracy falls off a hair but I can typically get "down zero" for both body and head shots on IDPA targets I use slow down for accuracy on some other shots where I want the hit like with head shots at 10 or 12 yards on IDPA targets where a miss would be a 2.5 second penalty. For the really up close "in your face" shots I don't even aim as such. It's up in my sighting view but at that point it's more a case of point the gun and pull as fast as my little finger can manage. Which appears to be around 4 to 5 shots a second.
Speaking of "doing it naturally" I'm almost always surprised at how tight the shot pairs are on the closer in really fast stuff just described. We're talking two holes that are typically less than 3 inches apart. Now that doesn't seem like much given the 1 to 3 yard spacing but I'm also surprised at how widely spaced the others manage to put their hits while shooting slower and more deliberately. It would appear that Mr Borland's note on "doing it naturally" obviously cuts in once we've reached a certain practice point. Once there the body knows what it needs to do IF YOU LET IT. And if there's one thing I'm picking up on from your series of discussion threads it is that you're a thinker that feels like they need to micro manage their body's actions. At first the thinking and pondering and analyzing is good. And a part of your mind should continue that since it's good to monitor how you're doing. But at this point you want to allow the hands and body to start to flow in a more natural rhythm while pulling that OCD monitoring function into the background.
Basically if you're doing something that feels cumbersome, such as a 4 to 5 second trigger pull, then listen to what your body is saying it wants to do and let it. If your hands feel odd when wrapped around the gun then move them around a little to where they feel natural. If your balance feels stilted and less than stable try moving around. If you feel overly tensed up then ease up a little. Try variations and monitor for when your body says "ahhhhhh, that's better".
This doesn't mean you toss out all the good stuff you've read. It simply means that now you apply it with the little variations needed to make it all fit and work with YOU.
I took a class from Ben Stoeger (USPSA Production Champion) recently and he had an interesting demonstration...he was shooting a CZ (DA/SA)
Pick a distance and align your sights, fire one shot with the front blade:
1. centered in the rear notch
2. all the way to the right side of the rear notch
3. all the way to the left side of the rear notch
Then check how much shot dispersion you have at the different distances. It is a great example of why trigger management is more important than sight alignment
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mikemyers
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Thanks - great video!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9r9xFlBT08
Maybe I'll copy it to my PC, and create a short video just with the scenes of Ed McGivern. What he did is unbelievable!!! Wow!
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mikemyers
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I did the math, as I was curious as to how long this has been taking. In the dry-fire drill I set up, there are 20 "rounds", with 45 seconds of firing followed by 30 seconds of rest. When I was pulling the trigger so slowly, I got off 6 shots in that 45 seconds, and with a gap between them, I figured I was pulling/pressing the trigger for five seconds.
After reading the above comments, I tried what felt more natural, and after I had a rhythm going, noticed that in that same 45 seconds, I was firing between 18 and 20 times. So, allowing for my keeping the trigger pulled until a bit of time after the gun fires, and releasing the trigger slowly, I guess I'm now pulling the trigger in one second.
I figured all this stuff out afterwards - all I really did is what you suggested, find a natural rhythm, at which I felt comfortable, and go at it.
(I also noticed that half way through my "schedule", my trigger finger was getting very sore; I think I'll adjust the timing so it's back to 30 seconds of "firing", then 30 seconds of "rest".)
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mikemyers
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I'm not going to measure things, but the pace that feels natural and comfortable means about a second of pulling the trigger before it goes <boom>.
It did not feel natural with a 5-second pull, but I don't know what bullseye shooters do - I figured with all the time in the world, they also would shoot very slowly.
The one thing pulling the trigger so slowly did show me, is how "uneven" the trigger pull is. Even doing it more quickly, the gun feels like something is pulling it back and forth, and while it could be my hands, i don't think so. If this is just trying to tell me the gun needs a trigger job, it will suddenly get much better after I get that done.
.........and yes, I do tend to think way too much about most things, but usually not while I'm actually "doing" them. And some, such as working on the innards of the gun, hardly ever get past the "thinking" stage.
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mikemyers
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That sounds like a fascinating thing to try. I think I'll try a modified version of it the next time I'm at the range. I'll fire at 15 yards, as usual, and do exactly as you suggested, except that I'll use three targets and fire 10 shots centered, then 10 shots to the right, and then 10 shots to the left.
Had someone asked me yesterday, I'd have told them I thought there would be a big difference. Now I'm not so sure - for all I know there might not be any noticeable difference!
(I think that's what Mr. Borland suggested some time back, that all the other things, grip, stance, sighting (?), etc., are far less important than trigger control.)
BCRider
Member
I've shot with the sights aligned like 9mm suggests during matches on lots of occasions. I pulled the trigger anyway because in IDPA and Speed Steel matches I only needed to be "accurate enough".
Having said that I fully expected to see one shot in the middle and the other out on the edge of the zone or into the next "-1" zone on the targets. Instead we'd walk the 12 to 15 yards out only to see that the shots were about 3 to 4 inches apart despite the sight alignment difference.
So yeah, I'm in the same boat as 9mm and Mr B in that the smoothness and neutral side pressure nature of a good and proper trigger pull counts for much more than exact sight alignment.
But all this changes when trying to go for slow fire tightest possible groups. You still need a good side pressure neutral trigger pull, that doesn't change, but now you also want the optimum sight picture. I'd even add in the rifleman's factor of squeezing off the shots between heart beats. When you're looking for that magical "10 shots in one small ragged hole" group ALL the factors need to be spot on.
Of course all this drops through the out house seat when you're fighting with old guy eyes and old guy nerves.....
Having said that I fully expected to see one shot in the middle and the other out on the edge of the zone or into the next "-1" zone on the targets. Instead we'd walk the 12 to 15 yards out only to see that the shots were about 3 to 4 inches apart despite the sight alignment difference.
So yeah, I'm in the same boat as 9mm and Mr B in that the smoothness and neutral side pressure nature of a good and proper trigger pull counts for much more than exact sight alignment.
But all this changes when trying to go for slow fire tightest possible groups. You still need a good side pressure neutral trigger pull, that doesn't change, but now you also want the optimum sight picture. I'd even add in the rifleman's factor of squeezing off the shots between heart beats. When you're looking for that magical "10 shots in one small ragged hole" group ALL the factors need to be spot on.
Of course all this drops through the out house seat when you're fighting with old guy eyes and old guy nerves.....
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mikemyers
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......Of course all this drops through the out house seat when you're fighting with old guy eyes and old guy nerves.....
There's nothing I can do to change my age from 71 to 17, so that's just something I get to accept, and work with. I think I still have 20:20 vision, with glasses of course, but I know my eyes don't focus like they used to.
Something else - I'm guessing most of you know how to check your pulse, by using your left hand to put pressure on the inside of your right wrist, and you can feel your heart beating. I've noticed that if I hold my mobile phone in front of me, so I can see the reflections in the glass screen, they "flicker" every time my heart beats. I don't know how much of an effect that has on precision, nor do I know how to minimize that effect.
.........back to your post. I find it very interesting that at 15 yards, moving the front sight to either extreme of the rear sight only makes a 3" to 4" difference in the POI. As soon as I get the chance, I'd like to try this myself.
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mikemyers
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Small update for this post. I'm back from India, and left for Fellsmere Florida a few days after I returned. I dropped off the Highway Patrolman for James (the local gunsmith at the Fellsmere shooting range) to go through it. He didn't change the things I did work on (with the help of all of you guys!), so we must have done OK. He did polish a few things, and remove some material from the Crimson Trace grips that he found was were binding on the new mainspring that I put in before leaving for India.
The gun feels much like it did before I dropped it off - maybe slightly smoother. No roughness anywhere, no binding - I'm very happy. James didn't do anything to lighten the trigger pull, which I never asked him to do.
I only had one short opportunity to shoot with it, and I seem to have "lost" one inch in group size from no shooting or practice for almost five months. Need to do something about that.....
To Mr. Borland, if you're still here - I also bought my old S&W Model 41 back from my brother, and in addition, purchased a High Standard target gun from someone thinning out his collection.
The gun feels much like it did before I dropped it off - maybe slightly smoother. No roughness anywhere, no binding - I'm very happy. James didn't do anything to lighten the trigger pull, which I never asked him to do.
I only had one short opportunity to shoot with it, and I seem to have "lost" one inch in group size from no shooting or practice for almost five months. Need to do something about that.....
To Mr. Borland, if you're still here - I also bought my old S&W Model 41 back from my brother, and in addition, purchased a High Standard target gun from someone thinning out his collection.
Yup, Still here. Welcome back and congrats on your M41.
We look forward to your M41 and M28 range reports, but since this link is old-ish and long, and your updates will get more exposure in a new thread, I'm gonna go ahead and close this one.
Welcome back and congrats on your M41.We look forward to your M41 and M28 range reports, but since this link is old-ish and long, and your updates will get more exposure in a new thread, I'm gonna go ahead and close this one.
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