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Sky marshals: The ignorance makes me want to weep!

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Bruce in West Oz, Jan 2, 2004.

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  1. Bruce in West Oz

    Bruce in West Oz Member

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    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8299657^7583,00.html
     
  2. NukemJim

    NukemJim Member

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    So many falsehoods, so little time ( I've got to go into work )

    Let see if a terrorist gets control of an aircraft they can use it to kill thousands, if they get lucky or are very well organized 10k to 100k (depending on what they fly the plane into for example a Liquid Natural Gas carrier could produce an explosin that could be equivalent to a small nuclear weapon from my understanding.

    If a gun causes the airplane to crash 100s die. If terrorists get control of the plane the goverment's plan is to send an air to air missle into the airliner killing everyone on board (and that is considered a "succesfull" intercept:rolleyes: )

    Whic of the above scenarios is worse?

    NukemJim
     
  3. JimP

    JimP Member

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    That's some pretty good thinking. I guess we should sit quietly in our seats and let them fly us into buildings and such. Much safer that way...:barf:
     
  4. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    [sniff]

    Looks like there is a complete breakdown of logic and rationality down under

    [/sniff]
     
  5. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Like there has been an outbreak of common sense here in the States?!?!:D

    The gun ignorant are ignorant whether in the US or in OZ.
     
  6. Fly320s

    Fly320s Member

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    Unfortunately, it is impossible to guarantee that. We have to trust someone.

    Someone, somewhere has been blessed/approved/properly documented to legally gain access to the secure area of the airport without being screened for weapons and other illegal items.

    My company has literally hundreds of people who meet this criteria. These folks are not required to go through security screening on a daily basis because of the nature of their job.

    But, pilots still go through the screening even though we have total control of the aircraft.

    I'm not suggesting that everyone or no one needs to be screened. I am very much in favor of armed personnel on board the aircraft as another layer of defense. I would like it even more if our taxes weren't paying for the defense of what really amounts to a private industry.

    We can not have impenetrable defense in the aviation industry. We can have a multi-layered defense system for when someone does get through.
     
  7. ravinraven

    ravinraven Member

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    Anyone remember Senator Byrdbrain?

    You know who I'm jabbering about. That KKK senator from West By-God Virginia.

    In arguing against armed pilots, I remember this tower of intellectual merit standing in the senate a year or two ago and saying that pilots had to fly the planes and not engage in gun battles with the passengers. He was greeted by wild cheers in the senate and from this political-basket-case I know.

    For some strange reason, too many believe that if we have armed pilots or sky marshalls, these people are going to whip their weapons out and shoot holes in whatever/whoever is available. This is the "gun control mentality" at its worst. They are saying "If you have a gun you WILL use it for some bad purpose."

    The Aussies have banned guns and collected all of them in Aussie land. Therefore any article written there isn't going to get printed unless it is "anti-gun" as the above article is.

    rr
     
  8. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Yep - banks hire their own security guards, why not airlines?

    TANSTAAFL
     
  9. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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  10. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    ANd we've seen how well that has worked, haven't we.

    Aussies and Britons are the ones saying "No guns on planes", and how has their "No guns" policy worked on their crime rates?

    I personally don't think there should be armed Sky Marshals either. I think every law abiding citizen with a CHL should be allowed to board a plane armed.

    Smoke
     
  11. 7.62FullMetalJacket

    7.62FullMetalJacket Member

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    I think that the more this is discussed in the "mainstream media," the better. We have a threat. We have increased ground security :rolleyes: , reinforced cockpit doors :scrutiny: , and finally, re-introduced guns as a tool to prevent hijackings :D .

    The anti arguments are false: we know it and the media knows it. You do not bring a taser to a gun fight. That the gov. considers armed skymarshals/pilots as a solution means that armed persons are an effective counter to terrorists. If it is good on a plane, it must also, therefore, be good on all mass transit, and everywhere else too. ;)
     
  12. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    What I want to know is, why do the F-16 pilots carrry guns and air2air missiles? Won't that just escalate the situation ...?

    :neener:
     
  13. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    When a terrorist-controlled airliner crashes into the Sydney Opera House, I wonder if that reporter will be as sure of his position...:rolleyes:
     
  14. TheeBadOne

    TheeBadOne Member

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    Pittsburgh woman charged with attacking air marshal on flight to Minneapolis

    A Pittsburgh woman is ringing in the New Year in a Minnesota jail after authorities charged her Wednesday with attacking an air marshal on a flight to the Twin Cities late Tuesday.

    Dawn L. Sunday, 37, is also charged in federal court with interfering with a flight crew on the Northwest Airlines Flight 1057.

    Federal Air Marshal Joseph Loftus wrote in a supporting affidavit that flight attendants moved the woman to an area of open seats in the back of the plane after passengers complained that she was being loud and intimidating. A flight attendant said she was intoxicated, he wrote.

    When Loftus took a seat next to her to calm her down, Sunday told him that she was going to kill him, then hit him in the back and tried to choke him, he wrote. He handcuffed her and she soon kicked him, the affidavit said.

    On the ground at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport, Sunday tried to bite a police officer and police had to tackle her at one point, Loftus wrote.

    Sunday appeared in court Wednesday before U.S. Magistrate Judge Janie Mayeron in St. Paul and was ordered held without bail. A hearing is scheduled for Monday.

    News Article
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I guess the author is correct. This article proves it.... :D
     
  15. Linux&Gun Guy

    Linux&Gun Guy Member

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    Frangible bullets may not do the same kind of damage as notorious soft-nosed bullets but they are still deadly. In fact, a US army article written in 2000 quotes defence officials as saying the bullet is just as lethal as standard rounds.


    Oh I get it we just want to make the terrorists very very mad not kill them.:rolleyes:

    Yet there are still some of us who would travel more comfortably if sky marshals were armed with something more suited to the jet age than High Noon.

    Guns today are the most effective way to kill people without hurting other people in the area and without costing very much or needing that much training. What does he suggest; a super blinding light laser?
     
  16. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Neat way for a terrorist to find out who on the flight has a gun. One good punch=instant hijacking weapon...:what:

    And the pilots are just limited to harsh language & "impenetrable" cabin doors (unless the terrorists lean on them too hard)...:rolleyes:


    Clarification: This doesn't mean that I'm against having armed personnel on flights. Quite the opposite: We need more than ONE person armed. 1 (or more) sky marshall + 2 armed pilots in the cabin + flight crew w/ access to stun guns or batons + the WILL for each person to use their weapon when necessary (+ firing Minetta, Ridge, & the TSA blissninnies) = SAFETY IN THE AIR.

    Sorry for being vague...
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2004
  17. mountainclmbr

    mountainclmbr Member

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    Israel has armed marshalls on El Al flights. I have never heard of a gun being wrestled from their hands. The same arguement could be made for disarming the police or the military. I have never understood the "strength from weakness" arguement. I would rather have an air marshall fighting terrorists with a gun than wait calmly for the F-16 to shoot us out of the sky.

    But, unarmed Australian or British flights may cause the terrorists to focus on those softer targets. Unless the hijacked flights strike the USA, it could make us safer here. I have never felt that a sheep being eaten by a wolf was anything but a natural occurrance. Neither did Mr. Darwin.
     
  18. Spot77

    Spot77 Member

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    Ground defense = no defense.

    I drive through checkpoints at two international airports quite frequently.

    I don't have any special I.D., and have never had any kind of background check done.

    The ground defense? "Sir may I see your Driver's License? What's your purpose here today?"

    And then I proceed to drive just about anywhere I want. I've parked under the wings of planes before. I've walked the runways, taxiways....you name it. It would be ridiculously easy for a terrorist to plant something on a plane.

    What if Sky Marshalls had some sort of remote control that would release a sleep agent into the cabin's (but obviously not the cockpit's) air supply system? SHTF, and two minutes later everybody in the cabin goes nitey nite.
    Could something like that work?
     
  19. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Remember the Russian opera house that was seized by Chechan terrorists? The Russians tried that, and nearly 200 people died in reaction to the chemical agents used.

    It's hard to find a chemical agent that won't have side effects. And only one person would have to die for some lawyer to start having wet dreams about the upcoming lawsuit...:banghead:
     
  20. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Your average commercial jet actually has holes in it which would add up to a fist-size or larger hole. It is NOT sealed (thus they don't float so good). Rather, it is kept at positive pressure through a system of pumps constantly bringing air and 02 into the aircraft. Put some more .38 or .45 holes in the side and, even assuming you could penetrate, all you'll get is more air pumped in to replace the air going out. Modern aircraft are a lot tougher than people realize.
     
  21. iapetus

    iapetus Member

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    Given what happened in Russia, I think I'd prefer a well-trained marshal shooting the terrorists than being gassed along with them. (Especially as the terrorists might have some sort of gas-mask).

    That said, it could be an extra line of defence just in case the marshals fail. It would still be preferable to crashing/ being blown up / shot down.


    Incidently, I saw a documentary about the Russian theatre siege.

    Apparently the gassing operation and assault was very well organised and effective, they got the hostages out with almost no casulties, and noone should have died afterwards.

    What killed them was the lack of appropriate medical treatment afterwards, (either nothing, or in some cases, worse than nothing).

    I think they talked about people being packed in ambulances (i.e. confined space with poor ventilation) and left there rather than being given oxygen, unconcious people not put in the recovery position, etc.
     
  22. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Cos, that's not what the James Bond School of Aeroengineering says.:D
     
  23. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Does anyone else remember that there has already been a shootout on an airliner in flight involving a "sky marshall" ...?

    I don't remember the year - would guess it was in the early seventies or late sixties.

    There was a hijacking attempt in flight and the sky marshall shot the perpetrator(s?). I don't know if the fuselage was punctured, but at least one innocent passenger was hit by gunfire.

    One of the wounded passenger(s) was the actor who played the Chinese cook on the TV show "Bonanza" - I remember seeing an interview of him in the hospital. He was glad to be alive and not at all upset that he had been wounded, he thought the sky marshall(s?) had done an excellent job and his injury was just one of those things that happen.

    Actually, I think that might have been the last hijack attempt on a American airliner until 9-11-01. Not long before that, the airlines were practically running an unscheduled shuttle service to Cuba.

    People are such wimps nowadays ....:rolleyes:
     
  24. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    What's the big deal about soft points? I could understand FMJ penetration (since they're so afraid of penetration) and I've seen people talk about frangibles and hollow points being "too deadly" or "too devastating." But soft points?
     
  25. Tag

    Tag Member

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    but guys, WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?

    :scrutiny:
     
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