Slide Catch or Release?

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From the SA 1911 A1 owners manual:

“Notice: The slide of a 1911-A1 pistol should never be released on an empty chamber; especially one which has had an action job. Releasing the slide on an empty chamber causes damage the breech face on the barrel and undue stress on all action parts, including the hammer and the sear. This will ruin the action job performed on your pistol.”

I believe the manual also gives the same warning for dropping the slide on a loaded chamber.
 
If your brass is cushioning the slide when you drop it on a loaded chamber I would check your head spacing or your brass lengh. Most auto rounds headspace on the mouth of the case not the rim.
 
Bullseye57 how did that happen? I have only seen that from folks using too light a spring with many too hot a load.

Those barrel lugs had evidence of hard wear near the bottom of the feet. The crack showed evidence of shearing from the front end of the barrel. The barrel's swinging link did not break, as shown (attached to the lugs) in the photo. From this wear, was consistent as evidence that the lower (feet) were striking the slide stop crosspin repeatedly, thereby stressing the lower lugs until they sheared off from the barrel. This failure could have been due an improperly fitted barrel but lower lug battering can also be accelerated by the stresses of repeatedly slamming the slide home on an empty chamber. This type of failure will not ordinarily occur from a few slide slams but can happen if releasing the slide fully home on an empty chamber is a routine habit.

Don't just take my word on this - here's an excerpt quote from a THR article 1911Tuner wrote in 2003: 1911 Clinic, The barrel link, Post #18, December 28th, 2003, 03:50 AM

The pin hits the lug feet toward the tips instead of in the radius. The tips of the feet get damaged by the slide going to battery. The pin that holds the link in the lug begins to wallow out the hole that it's pressed into, and the interference fit is lost. The bent feet and sloppy action in the link delays linkdown timing. Incidentally, this is why letting a slide slam into battery on an empty chamber is a bad thing to do to an autopistol.


Hope this help.

R,
Bullseye


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The following is from an April 23 posting;
Dry firing a good quality 1911 will not hurt it. I have done it literally hundreds of thousands of times with zero damage to the firing pin (either end), or the pin hole. HOWEVER, if you have a lightened trigger pull (pretty much anything under 3 1/2 lbs), DON'T drop the slide on an empty magazine with the trigger forward. I got this warning from John Shaw in person. (He was 3time 3-gun champion, and winner of Bianchi Cup, Steele Challenge, and all the other big shoots in the late 70's and early 80's; and a contemporary with Bill Wilson, John Pride, Brian Enos, Chip McCormick, Jim Clark, and others.)
When I asked what the difference between "dropping the slide" empty vs just shooting the pistol, he explained that when you're shooting the pistol and the slide is cycling, the trigger is to the rear, and all the trigger parts (sear, hammer-engagement hook, etc) are all out of battery. When you drop the slide on an empty magazine (or no mag) and the trigger is in the ready position, the hammer, sear, and related parts can bounce around against each other. On a finely adjusted trigger group, there are only a few ten-thousanths of mating surfaces in touch, and that "bouncing around" can eat that up, ruining a good and consistant pull, or allowing the hammer to follow the slide forward. Dropping the slide (trigger forward) on a loaded mag or one with a snapcap in it, the forward velocity of the slide is slowed by the force required to strip the round from the mag, plus the force required to accelerate the stationary round.
So unless you're going to use the heavy, spring loaded snap caps; or drop the slide with the trigger pulled, I'd reccomend thumbing back the hammer for dryfire practice. Other people here may have other suggestions, but I have and will continue sticking to the advice of Mr. Shaw.
 
If your brass is cushioning the slide when you drop it on a loaded chamber I would check your head spacing or your brass lengh. Most auto rounds headspace on the mouth of the case not the rim.

Hitting the brass at the end of slide travel is only a very small part of reducing the impact. More of the momentum is stripped from the slide as it strips the round from the magazine.
 
Call me a sissy, but I would like my stuff to last as long as possible. So if there's a slam-bang stressful way of doing something and a low-stress, gentle way, I'll usually pick the latter.
With my Springfield Armory 1911 I even push in the mag release button as I'm inserting the magazine so it doesn't wear on the magazine finish.
 
I dont slam the action home on anything if I'm not chambering it. It does happen occasionally (like when I don't seat the mag properly), and I can hear a difference, more with my 1911 than my AR15.

I did a quick search and found an experiment performed by Tuner.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1395530#post1395530
Some years back, I had an old pistol that was ready for a rebuild, so I decided to conduct an experiment with it.

I began by using cold rolled stock to make a substitute for the slidestop pin, and fire the gun in 50-round test lots to determine how much impact was absorbed during a live-feed return to battery vs an empty slam.
Two pins were made for each test.

50 rounds revealed no deforming of the soft steel...but the pins were peened badly by dropping the slide on empty in as little as 12 cycles.
By 20 cycles, the pin was all but useless.

Going further, I drilled out the center on the pins in increments of .0156 inch...1/64th...and retesting. These holes were drilled undersized and reamed to exact dimension. By the time I had drilled a full 3/16ths
hole in each of the pins, the empty slam was destroying them in 2 or 3 cycles. The same pins continued to function during live-fire for up to 200 rounds..with minimal deformation. Understand that removing 3/16ths inch from the center of a .200 diameter pin would leave about .025 inch of wall thickness...a shell about 6 times the thickness of a sheet of 20-bond paper.

Assuming that your trigger group/fire control group hasn't been dinked with...the damage incurred is most severe at the lower lug feet. The slidestop crosspin is fairly well over-engineered and well-supported.
The lower lug feet aren't designed to absorb the repeated impact stress of a 16-ounce slide propelled by a 16-pound coil spring.

There's also the matter of the slidestop pin holes in the frame. Ever seen a pistol with the holes elongated toward the front? I have...and in guns that weren't all that old. Guess what causes that. Yep...Impact.
 
Letting the slide slam closed in an empty chamber will eventually cause excessive wear, but IMHO ain't much of a gun if it breaks after only a few hundred executions -- its going to happen eventually when shooting as you will at some point encounter a defective mag that doesn't lock back.

--wally.
 
A slide stop's (catch, if you prefer) primary function is to stop the slide in the rearward position when the magazine empties. It is your option to use it as a release. (I usually do.) For simplicity of nomenclature I always call them slide stops.
 
The question in my mind would be, how much does the act of pulling a round out of the mag and chambering it slow down the forward movement of the slide? It doesn't seem like it would slow it down all that much.

actually it makes quite a difference, here are all the addition forces encountered when a slide chambers a rounds from a mag:
1. slide contacts rear of shell in mag
2. pushes against friction of case being pushed against lips by mag spring
3. bullet impacts feed ramp and changes direction
4. bullet contacts chamber mouth as it again changes direction to enter chamber

I can't believe JMB didn't take this method of closure into account.

I won't believe JMB didn't take this method of closure into account.

why not, he didn't take into account that closing the slide on a chambered round would overstress his extractor and cause it to break. as a side note: the Beretta M9/92 family have an extractor designed to close over a chambered round without damage
 
I guess kimber must be strange...


Kimber pistols have factory tuned match grade trigger groups that break crisp and clean. Slide and magazine releases are slightly extended for quick location and easy operation. Frame has a high kidney cut for best grip position.


Model: Custom Target II™ .45 ACP
Caliber: .45 ACP
Features: Full 5-inch barrel and steel frame.
Match grade frame, slide, barrel, bushing and chamber.
Custom features standard; extended thumb safety, high ride beavertail grip safety, beveled magazine well and slightly extended magazine release and slide release.
Match grade barrel is machined from a single piece of solid steel for accuracy and long life.



Maybe they should change the name to "slide release only when chambering a round"
 
after a while you can damage a semi-auto by doing that on an emply chamber. You will actually ruin a 1911 trigger job by slamming it shut on an empty chamber.
 
The guy who owns a local gun store tried to tell me today that by locking the slide open, either by hand or on an empty mag, and then pushing the slide catch/release and letting the slide slam forward that I will ruin the gun. Any gun. He made that clear, any gun at all. Said it ruins the trigger, slide, and slide catch arm.


I just have to comment one more time on this. Let's use logic in thinking about this. There are plenty of pistols, semi-automatic pistols, that are designed without a slide stop. In other words there slides do not remain in an open position after the last round is fired. Instead of the slide remaining locked back and open what happens is this: the final round is fired, the round is extracted, the round is ejected, the slide slams closed on an empty chamber. It happens every time you fire the last round in one of these pistols. These guns are in essence the same design as a gun with a slide stop/release, they are semi-automatic pistols, except for the fact that they do not have a slide lock/release device. That is the only basic difference. Yet, they do not malfunction, or become weakened, in any manner of which I have ever heard because the slide is slamming closed over an empty chamber - and I should point out the slide slams home harder than if released by the slide relase lever because it is all the way back just before it slams home. Remember that a slide locked back by the slide stop is not all the way back, and can indeed be pulled back to be slingshot closed. So why are these not damaged by closing on an empty chamber if what many of you are saying is actually correct? The truth is they are not made any stronger than a pistol with a slide catch/release, and the truth also is they are not damaged by the slide slamming forward on an empty chamber. So it seeems logical that allowing the slide to slingshot onto an empty chamber will not damage a semi-auto pistol.

All of the arguments about what bad things will happen apparently do not hold water when you take this into consideration with a normal pistol. That is with the possible exception of firearms manufactured to standards not allowing for such stress, which is doubtful considering all the other stress they undergo, and with the possible exception of altered firearms such as ones with delicate special action jobs, where the gun was so weakened by whatever work was done as to make it less than desirable as a weapon of choice for self defense.

So I hope you go back to the gun store to ask that gun store clerk exactly why semi-auto pistols without slide stops are not ruined by the slide slamming home on an empty chamber. I would sure be interested to hear his all knowing explanation.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
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why not, he didn't take into account that closing the slide on a chambered round would overstress his extractor and cause it to break. as a side note: the Beretta M9/92 family have an extractor designed to close over a chambered round without damage
Comparing JMB's extractor with one from a modern pistol is an apple to oranges comparison. I dont think spring steel extractors are prone to break like the "improved" modern extractors are.
 
Glenn, I'm only knowledgable (or not) in regard to the trigger group "bashing" that occurs when dropping the slide on an empty mag or chamber.
Bear with me here.
Even on a pistol without a slide-stop, where the slide returns forward after the last round is fired, the trigger is STILL pulled to the rear, and all the trigger-group parts are not in contact with each other. The trigger-parts are out of battery when the slide slams forward and are not taking any beating at all.
Now, contrast that with the slide banging forward with the trigger fully forward (your finger off the trigger)... with the sear engaged with the hammer.
There's a world of difference in forces acting on the trigger-group parts when the slide slams forward when A) the trigger is pulled to the rear, and B) the trigger is fully forward. ...or so I've been told by someone I respect as being FAAAR more knowledgable than I.
 
It makes no difference one way or the other. None, zip, nada. Whatever works best for you. I always used the slide stop to close the slide and load a round on every semi-auto I've ever owned and never had a problem.

I generally don't drop the slide on an empty chamber. I ease it closed using both hands. Does it make a difference with an empty chamber? I have no idea.

To each his own.
 
Comparing JMB's extractor with one from a modern pistol is an apple to oranges comparison.

i wasn't comparing the two.

i was putting forth an example to refute the assertion that JMB had taken all possibilities of failure into consideration in his original design
 
My opinion the slide stop should not be used as a slide release as standard
procedure, while it may look cool and sound good it will wear parts.
 
From Patent #984,519 issued Feb. 14, 1911 to John M. Browning, of Ogden Utah.

Page 2, line 103-104,
“Figs. 21, 22 and 23, are respectively side, top and rear views of the combined link-pin and breech-slide-stop…”

Page 4, line 98-111,
“For easier handling the pivot-pin I is provided with a handle j which projects at right angles from the end of the pin, and extending rearward rests against the left side of the frame a when the pin is in its place, (see Figs. 1,3,21,22 and 23.)
In order to adapt the handle to be readily moved upward and downward by the thumb of the hand grasping the grip, the rear end of the handle j carries a projecting thumb piece j1. A lug j2 projects from the handle inward through an opening in the side of the frame into the top of the magazine-seat …”

Page 5, line 7-16,
“…the follower will raise the lug j2 and the handle j and cause the projection l to enter the recess m in the breech-slide, thereby locking the same in the open rear position, and serving as an indicator to show that the empty magazine must be replaced by a charged one before the firing can be continued. After placing the magazine in the grip the breech-slide is released by depressing the handle j.
[emphasis added]


While Browning refers to the "slide-stop" repeatedly in the patent, he also clearly intends for it to be used to release the "breech-slide" to chamber ammunition.

Repeated slide closures without chambering a round can damage target sear and hammer hook work.
Not adjusting a trigger stop screw can also allow the sear to be struck by the hammer during firing.

After performing trigger work a limited number of slide release slams are needed to verify the hammer will not be jarred loose, but you only need a few to verify the work.
 
I use the term, SLide Release/Lock (R/L) then if I refer to
it again in the same post it will be Slide R/L

One person referred to the Hammer Strut spring in a 1911, I asked
her to clarify, they don't call it the Hammer Strut Spring
Housing, it's a friggin Main Spring, Main SPring Cup etc.

Randall
.
 
When the slide is going backwards, it's a slide catch.
When the slide is moving forward, it's a slide release.
Simple, no more to it.;)
 
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