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Slomo videos, Glock 17 Gen4 and CZ-75B

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by MacTech, Mar 20, 2016.

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  1. MacTech

    MacTech Member

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    I've taken some Slomo videos of a Glock 17 Gen4 (no longer own, traded for my CZ-75B) and my CZ-75B, and I discovered some interesting things....

    Both were shot by my 13 year old nephew, his first time shooting each handgun, so you're seeing a beginner grip in both videos

    Glock 17 Slomo
    Notice how slowly the slide cycles backwards, you can clearly see the full travel of the slide in slow motion, and muzzle rise is minimal

    Now, the CZ-75B, to my eyes, the CZ seems to have faster slide cycling, when I frame by frame advance it, the next round is chambered and slide in full battery just before the muzzle starts descending downwards, basically, the next round is ready just slightly after the recoil impulse has pushed back/up, also, at least with Logan shooting it, the CZ appears to have more muzzle flip than the Glock... Strange that the heavier gun has a snappier recoil

    I asked Logan what he thought...

    Which had less felt recoil? The Glock
    Which was more comfortable to shoot? the CZ
    Which did he like better? The CZ

    The correct answer? Both are good guns, all down to personal preference

    I think next weekend I'll have Logan video *Me* shooting the CZ to see how much of a factor an experienced shooter would be, it could be he was holding both guns a tad loosely
     
  2. RedAlert

    RedAlert Member

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    I'm sure a more consistent grip of an experienced shooter will lend itself to better video and a more accurate comparison between the two pistols.

    Nice videos, bye the way.
     
  3. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    MacTech

    Good videos! Probably your nephew's loose grip contributed to his perception of felt recoil with both guns. A friend of mine use to shoot with his index finger on the trigger guard. He was always complaining that when he used a handgun accuracy and control seemed to be very inconsistent. So I watched him at the range and every time he fired a shot his finger flew off the trigger guard, taking away from where it could have better supported his grip. Once he started wrapping all of his fingers around the front grip his accuracy and controllability improved greatly.
     
  4. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    You'd think he's shooting a .44 mag from those videos. The trigger guard grip is a waste of time and never has been an effective way to hold a semi automatic pistol.
     
  5. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    i beg to differ....on a pistol that was designed for it (like the glock and CZ), the trigger guard grip i find gives you much more controll over the recoil of the firearm......because instead of controlling recoil from 1 point( the grip).....are are controlling it with 2......functioning to the same effect as a VFG.......
     
  6. strambo

    strambo Member

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    It can...but not the way it is being done in those videos. If the finger comes off at the moment of firing, it isn't doing squat.

    I feel a really good shooter can use that technique, most people aren't really good so they are just introducing another wonky variable in their grip.
     
  7. Thompsoncustom

    Thompsoncustom Member

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    Indeed it's hard to compare with the grip used, but its also impossible for the cz to have more recoil than the glock due to the weight alone, tho the recoil could be precised different due to the different designs.
     
  8. 340PD

    340PD Member

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    Isn't the square trigger guard so common on today's semi autos originally designed for shooting off a barricade?
     
  9. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    i seriously doubt that shooting off a barricade is common enough to require the need for them to ingrate that into the gun.....

    and square trigger guards pre-date a lot of the "tactical" barricade shooting....


    a trigger guard grip is much more likely
     
  10. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    He really needs to work on his grip... cannot imagine what the other side looks like.
     
  11. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    I don't know of a single firearms instructor, police department, federal LE agency or any military that teaches such an antiquated technique. The "trigger guard grip" was in fashion for about as long as Levis Super Bell jeans.......for good reason. It doesn't work as well as other techniques.
    To say it functions to the same effect in controlling recoil as a VFG is just plain silly.



    The only reason Glock squared off his trigger guard was because it was a fad in the late '70's early '80's for 1911 custom shops to checker or stipple the front of the trigger guard.

    Using a fingers forward of the trigger guard technique on some revolvers will teach you a painful lesson.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2313371/posts
    While that guy used a VERY thumbs forward grip, any digit forward of the trigger guard carries a risk






    Nope.
    Go look at some of the old gun rags from the disco era and you'll find plenty of articles about checkered front straps....but no mention of using them against a barricade.

    That doesn't mean that someone found such a purpose, but it wasn't the original intent.
     
  12. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    the mechanics are there, you have a downward force creating a moment to counteract the rise of the muzzle........giving you 2 points of contact over 1.

    as far as department training.......that really doesnt make much of an argument......hell, for years, people were taught isosceles stance.....then everyone determined that isosceles sucked, and we all needed to learn Weaver......now weve all kind of determined that weaver sucks more than isosceles and weve all gone back to that.....and in some cases not even bothering to teach stance at all....

    ive found in the majority of cases.....the training "of the day" is based on whatever is cool and trendy, and in many cases, what looks cool...........not necessarily on what is most effective.

    and a lot of the time is goes unquestioned......hell, some high level trainer will do something....and everyone else will just start teaching that, because "thats how they were taught" or "thats how they do it at XXXXX"......with little to no thought as to why....
     
  13. entropy

    entropy Member

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    You have stumbled upon an excellent teaching tool with the 240 FPS setting. Previous posters have pointed out Logan's foibles in grip and trigger control, so I won't add much except I definitely agree with dogtown tom; the 'trigger guard grip is antiquated. It was effective with semi-auto pistols at the time it was introduced, but there are better methods used now; and yes, I will attest that firing a revolver with such a grip can HURT! :what: I fired a Python that way once, had the left index finger on the frame. It was numb for a while!
     
  14. guzzi

    guzzi Member

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    I think the young man is working to emulate a well know expert.

    For those who think the finger on the front of the trigger guard on a pistol is wrong, jump to 11:35 on the video.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  15. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Seems to me Competitors in action pistol figured it out decades ago...
    While the tactical crowd eats up the flavor of the month.
     
  16. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    Interesting to see how as soon as he starts pulling the trigger, the muzzle dips ~2 deg before the cartridge fires.

    I agree that you should repeat with more experienced, full grown shooter, to rule out limp wristing.
     
  17. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    "Downward force"? Not a bit. Force applied to the front of a trigger guard is REARWARD, not downward.....that's why skateboard tape, checkering or stippling was done to the frame. Further, the number of "points of contact" is irrelevant.......you have a point of contact to mitigate recoil with every finger on both hands.;)




    Note that wasn't my only reference..........I said: "I don't know of a single firearms instructor, police department, federal LE agency or any military that teaches such an antiquated technique."..........that makes a HUGE argument. If professional instructors have abandoned the trigger guard grip, who other than yourself, still teaches it?:scrutiny:





    And that doesn't prove your point, but confirms mine. NOBODY teaches the trigger guard grip.



    The majority of cases? Again, who's teaching these cool and trendy grip techniques that are not effective? And are any of them teaching the trigger guard grip?





    Ever stop to think you just described the trigger guard grip phase of the '70's?
    It's 2016 man, forty years worth of better ways to hold a handgun than by wrapping a finger around a trigger guard.



    And note that in the second scene in that video he shoots the handgun upside down.;)

    Familiarity with different techniques is the mark of a great teacher.
     
  18. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    A few people manage to make the trigger guard grip effective. They all have fingers long enough to reach the trigger guard, though, and none of them that I know of put TWO fingers on the guard as per the CZ video.

    But IIUC, the shooter was 13! At 13, everyone's technique sucks. Not just at shooting... at pretty much everything!

    I'd also add that there's lots and lots of dogma in shooting about what is good and what isn't. Part of what is great about competition is that stuff gets objectively measured and subjected to a crucible of pressure and competition. Stuff that wins gets popular.
     
  19. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Oh, one other note. If anyone ever asks what a flinch (pre-ignition push) looks like, these videos show one quite convincingly.
     
  20. MacTech

    MacTech Member

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    We definitely use the video as a teaching tool, the next time he shoots the 75, it'll be with the more modern two handed grip and keeping the fingers off the trigger guard

    He actually admitted after shooting that vid that he felt like he was holding the gun wrong, and that next time he'd ignore the trigger guard grip and just go for a normal two hand grip
     
  21. sequins

    sequins Member

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    I suspect the lower bore access of the CZ is contributing to the "felt recoil" relative to the Glock despite the increased weight. With a less firm grip you're going to experience more perceived recoil anyways, and with a lower bore access it's going to flip less and impact your hands more. I have tried a couple of grip techniques and I have finally settled on both eyes open thumbs forward grip. I think you should have him experiment with a couple of different stance and grip techniques so he can find the one that works best for him, as I suspect his grip was the largest factor in his shooting.

    Great videos by the way, would love to see more firearms and more shooting. Slow motion video is very fun to watch, especially for firearms.
     
  22. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Hmm. I thought it was the other way around. About the only place you see the Weaver stance used, nowadays, is at the range, punching holes in paper targets. Try that grip and stance in a gun game and you;kk find yourself trying to do things you can't really do well with Weaver -- like shooting from the prone position, around the off-hand side of a barricade, from a kneeling position, or firing while in a crouch while trying to stay low. The shooter's flexibility is somewhat impaired, too.

    An acquaintance who has spent several years working as a civilian instructor with Special Ops troop at Ft. Bragg, says they use a modified Isosceles stance with both handguns and long guns. And they do NOT teach finger on the the front of the finger guard, or sling-shot slide releases.

    Many of the revisions to military training over the past decade came as the result of hard-learned lessons and experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq...
     
  23. Hardtarget

    Hardtarget Member

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    Remember...shooter is 13 yrs old. Hand/wrist strength and size play heavy in ability to control recoil. Maturity plays into this as well. He will grow into a shooter soon seein' as how he is already at the line. Be fun to see him shoot in five years with some coaching and practice! :D

    I just like seeing slo-mo of guns fired! muzzle blast, recoil, re-set...just cool to see it slow. More fun to feel it "real time"!

    Mark
     
  24. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Unless you have something that supports that, its malarkey.

    Glock dosent do ANYthing for style points being the "only" reason.

    When Glock came out, it was about the furthest thing from a custom shop 1911 in the gun world.


    They were going after military contracts. The last thing they were trying to emulate was anything coming out of any custom shop.
     
  25. tercel89

    tercel89 Member

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    I didn't read the other posts but I have both . I love the CZ pistols. They ROCK ! But I also have Glock pistols and they ROCK too. Due to the low number of parts in the Glock I would choose the Glock in a battle or self defense situation. I have detailed stripped a CZ 75 and there are TOO MANY parts that can go wrong and just too many moving parts to rely on as a self defense gun .
     
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