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Slow and Heavy VS. Fast and Light

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by GunNut1976, Dec 12, 2010.

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  1. GunNut1976

    GunNut1976 Member

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    I know this has been debated a million times and I'm not looking for "what's better" I'd like some more info on the actual terminal mechanics of the situation. Given the exact same bullet design how does a 230 gr. Gold dot goin 850 fps act as compared to a 125 gr. Gold dot going 1400 fps. I'd like to know direct effects on expansion and penetration and also secondary factory such as hydrostatic shock and temporary wound cavities and the whole bit.

    Thanks everyone in advance
     
  2. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    I've carried a Glock 33 in 357 SIG, G27 in 40 S&W and a 3'' Kimber 45 acp; I think these are represenative of the question.
    The 33 is the leader in KE, followed by the 27, then the chopped 1911.
    In reality, I'm likely as well protected by one as the other.
    However, from what I know, bigger bullets make bigger holes.
    Anyone ever said, "I shoulda used a smaller bullet" after defending themself?
     
  3. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    Irrelevant.

    Hit here, get results.
    Hit elsewhere, not so much.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. RoboDuck

    RoboDuck Member

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    My bullet may be a little slow, but don't worry,,,, it will get there.

    I'm not concerned about expansion, it's already going to make a big hole.


    45 ACP 200 grain CCI/Speer Gold Dot JHP +P @ 1062 FPS.
     
  5. mwpslp

    mwpslp Member

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    Interested in hearing a bit about that myself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  6. RoboDuck

    RoboDuck Member

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  7. papa_bear

    papa_bear Internet Reacon Marine

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    bigger is better plain and simple. however a handgun is a handgun. don't expect a major noticeable difference.
     
  8. A.H. Fox

    A.H. Fox Member

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    I just hit the place I am aiming and let the bullet an BG work it out. :cool:
     
  9. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    In a pure sense, performance in the different calibers would depend on the bullet design. A flat soft-nose might expand better from a fast, small bullet than a large, slow one, and deep-cavity JHP's vice versa. Gold Dots work well on either.

    At handgun velocity, hydrostatic shock is effectively nonexistant and temporary cavities make no difference.

    Mostly, a good fast 9mm will expand just fine from the speed, and a slow .45 from the cavity, but I don't see the point in worrying about it.They both work.
     
  10. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    I prefer heavy AND fast... that's why I just adore the 10mm Auto. 200g @ 1200fps = No compromises. However, it's all worth nothing if you don't hit your target.
     
  11. MikeNice

    MikeNice Member

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    A big heavy bullet is going to get you slightly more penetration in flesh over a smaller faster bullet. Being the exact same in all other regards they should both expand equally well. (When it comes to hollow points.)

    If you are worried about having to shoot through a car door, or something of that nature, faster and smaller is better to an extent. Since you are putting more energy in to a smaller space there is a better chance to punch through. A 9mm 124gr is probably going to do better than a .45ACP 230gr against a car door. With modern car construction they will probably work though.

    Basically with all things being the same I like to go heavy for the caliber. I would use a Federal HST 147gr 9mm instead of a 124gr. The company that distributes Federal LE ammo has done a bit of testing. Usually the HST performs better when using heavy for caliber bullets.

    Now if I was using something like Starfire hollow points I would go with a 124gr just to ensure that I was achieving enough velocity. It is an older design and some older designs are speed sensitive.

    So, really it all depends on how the bullet is made.

    I tend to prefer Hydra Shok and HST rounds that are heavy for their caliber.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  12. NMGonzo

    NMGonzo Member

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    big, fast, and heavy

    there!
     
  13. 481

    481 Member

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    You are gonna get a lot of that here.




    Best advice I can provide is to obtain a copy of Duncan MacPherson's book, "Bullet Penetration", and read it cover to cover.

    The answers you seek are there and if you are capable of understanding what he offers, you will be miles.....no.....light years ahead of the average shooter/gun owner in your comprehension of terminal ballistics.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  14. gbran

    gbran Member

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    W.E.G.

    Are you sayin it's all about "shirt placement"?
     
  15. Hatterasguy

    Hatterasguy Member

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    Doesn't matter as long as you put rounds on target, everything else are just details and not that important.

    .380, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, .50 etc it doesn't matter, 2-3 to the center mass will kill or put someone on the ground crying for their mother.
     
  16. merlinfire

    merlinfire Member

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    This.
     
  17. GunNut1976

    GunNut1976 Member

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    thank you that sounds right up my alley. you know after the first 50 smart ass replies I was wondering if anyone was going to give me something useful. Just kidding!
     
  18. 481

    481 Member

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    ha ha

    :D
     
  19. Iam2taz

    Iam2taz Member

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    It seems there are a lot of military guys begging for a .45 in leiu of a 9 mm. Both will probably go through the average man if you don't hit anything major. Hit a bone and the .45 will most likely do the most damage and knock the guy off balance. Graphs that I have seen show the expansion / perhipheral damage of the .45 to be much larger than the 9 mm. That said, most of the time you will get 7-8 rounds of .45 and 15-16 of 9 mm.
    I was shooting steal plates with my 9 mm earlier in the fall and sometimes they didn't fall down even though I hit them. "You have to hit them higher", said the instructor. Next guy walks up with a .45 and ding, ding, ding. Down they go. Just sayin....
     
  20. GunNut1976

    GunNut1976 Member

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    you know I think everyone pretty much understands this. We know that shot placement is the most important thing. Can't we talk about what bullets we think work best? Can't we talk about bullet design, expansion, penetration, terminal ballistics Can't we discuss this without some genius making remarks like this. "doesn't matter" what doesn't matter? bullet design? ".380, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, .50 etc it doesn't matter" This is so ridiculous. if there was no difference then everyone in the world would carry 9mm's or .380's with 17 round clips. If there was no difference then police agencies across the country would just spin a wheel to choose their firearm and bullets. Let's arm our soldiers with .380 LCP's and my wife with a .50 desert eagle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  21. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    Both theories are solid, it is just that most handgun bullets are really not that big or that fast. There was a show on The History Channel the other night about the controversial death of explorer Merryweather Lewis of Lewis and Clark. He supposedly shot himself in the head and then the chest and still took all night to die. Some say he was murdered.

    The investigators had an exact replica of the .69 caliber horse pistol that he was known to have carried on that trip. They also had a human analogue made of ballistic gel formed around a plastic skeliton designed to have the same strength as real human bone. They shot it in the head and chest at close range. The huge 500 grain lead ball was probably not going half as fast as some modern handgun rounds though it did conciderable damage to the simulated head. and blew a shotgun slug size hole in the chest. Neither ball exited though the side of the head ruptured from the shock.
     
  22. Lou McGopher

    Lou McGopher Member

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    You forgot to mention .22 Short.
     
  23. A.H. Fox

    A.H. Fox Member

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    My "let the bullet and BG work it out" comment was not a smart ass comment. That is what I do. If the BG wins the first argument, I send more bullets at him to argue with.
     
  24. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    There really isn’t much to discuss.

    What you hit is more important than what you hit with.

    Placement and penetration are the primary factors in producing an effective wound.

    A larger diameter bullet crushes a larger diameter hole as it penetrates.

    The bigger hole may facilitate greater rate of blood loss. The rate of blood loss (volume of blood lost over time) determines how quickly the wound will force the bad guy to stop.

    A larger diameter bullet may crush a larger hole in a major blood vessel which may increase the rate of blood loss.

    A larger diameter bullet may nick the wall of a major blood vessel that would have been merely grazed by a smaller diameter bullet traveling the same exact path which may increase the rate of blood loss.

    The purpose of bullet design is to produce a bullet with robust expansion qualities - one that will expand consistently and reliably despite commonly encountered variations in circumstances, and penetrate deeply enough after expanding to reliably reach and damage tissues critical to immediate survival.
     
  25. GunNut1976

    GunNut1976 Member

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    dude I'm just joking around I got a lot of smart ass remarks that weren't real good answers to my questions.
     
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