Small knife effectiveness

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Tourist, I hear you. There's value to your perspective, no doubt. What I plan for, though, is falling on my butt when the drunk comes at me...I plan for the drunk sneaking up behind me and applying a little too much pressure, slicing instead of waving his knife around...

I tried to find a great Marc MacYoung quote on it, it goes something like "Humans are the darnedest things. Sometimes the biggest, strongest guy will fall like a dead leaf, and sometimes the smallest, oldest guy will take rifle shots and keep coming. There are no givens in combat."
 
conwict said:
There's value to your perspective

I also believe that responsible tradesmen have to draw a line in the sand.

I think JShirley ought to find a 3" Graham (especially in S30V) and re-do some tests. After all, it is a short knife in public circulation.
 
If I get the chance, I will.

OTOH, the Cobra I used is a modern ATS-34 knife. It would be interesting to see if the geometry of the Razel alone would make a great difference on a similar target.
 
Try hanging an old ham butt from the Safeway that was tossed out because of past expiration. Put it in a leg of an old pair of jeans, and take a swipe with a well sharpened Old Hickory paring knife or boning knife. Its interesting. :D
 
hso, JShirley, Jeff White, Lee Lapin and a few others understand "my" perspectives based on "my" experiences, and "my" tasks for environments.
They know exactly whom mentored me and why they passed forward real life experiences and observations to me. As my "needs" were the same as theirs

-Small pen knife, less than 3" closed, that does not have one hand assisted opening, and does not have a lock.

-I prefer two blades.
Main blade is "toothy" sharp, and is not polished.
Pen blade is going to be sharper. I did not say it was going to be "razor sharp", nor did I say it was going to be "polished.

-I prefer carbon, tool steel blades.


It is true I was born with a Case Peanut , with bone handles and CV blades.
I am "associated" with such a knife and in recent years the yellow handled one.
I do not own but one Case knife, period, at this time, and it happens to be a celluloid Case Peanut , with Stainless Blades. It is sentimental, a gift and the blade has been engraved with something special. I have never sharpened it, and doubt I ever will. It is a sentimental collectible to me, and it means something to those that presented it.

I give perceptions I choose to give, to whomever I choose to give "what" to.
There were other tools, including knives in that crib as well. Time passes and other small pen - knives and other "knives" were custom made as well.
Offensive and defensive tools.

Now I can "polish", and if I had access to what I used to have, I could scare the living daylights out of folks with "sharp" and "polish". I have restored some swords, and other neat edged weapons. I did it without a store bought jig.
I may have used some ingenuity, to protect the integrity of the Civil War patina, or whatever.

I will share again, I had some Mentors & Elders that were interesting folks. These ladies and gents, were in places were guns, and many other things were restricted.
Checkpoints, where one was to cross, and "Police" armed at checkpoints.
One was subject to search on the streets by "police" , anytime gathered with others, and just walking down a sidewalk, or riding in any type of conveyance.

That small thin piece of steel was a much needed and respected tool.
One blended in, for sure one did not attract attention, and one gave perceptions needed to stay safe, and to survive.

Now that "Policeman(s)" likes ladies and likes to have his/their way with them, especially girls, that want to "get past his gate".
You want to get past that gate, they might accept a "bribe" whether you intended the female to be a bribe or not.
Then again, it might just be easier to shoot the male and have their way with a female, especially a younger one, and especially "girls".

Those persons have information, they know things, they may even have something real important, a "package" that needs to be on past that gate.
Time is critical, a "deadline" if you will.

"War" is defined as what it is, and does what one must do to win a war and keep others safe in fighting this "war".

The word is out, that "Police" are going to want "bribes".
So a female tapes her breasts tight to look flat, her hair is either up under a hat, or has been cut in the style of a male.
She is going to act, walk, talk like a male, to "blend in" and give the perception of being a male.

Someone blabbed, it is not important if it was an accident, or intentional to get some items needed by "Police" still someone blabbed.

One "Police" at the gate, the other is eating.
Two persons approach, both appearing to be males, one is actually a girl, with her hair up under a hat.

The drill is to show papers, stand and be frisked, and if asked, remove hat.
The practiced plan goes in motion.
The male has a newspaper in hand, and it with hat in the other hand are extended as he is frisked first.
He is behind and to the side of the "Police" as he goes to frisk the girl. She extends her arms and leaves her hat on. This "male" is being a bit curious, and he reaches to remove the hat, the "paper knife" slices his throat.
His gun is removed and he is beat about the head.
"Policeman" two, comes to see and his face meets the butt of a rifle.

Two bodies are dragged out of sight..
Two persons continue down past that gate.


Some want a knife to cut poly rope, cable ties, wet sisal rope, duct tape, electrical tape.
Some want toothy and bite.
Some like a blade to have the ability to bend, and not break.


There is a place for hard blades.
Phil Wilson is just one person that "thinks" as I was mentored. Shing is another.
Take a steel, and for that steel and its properties make it hard. This is for those folks that understand knives, care, use and how to maintain.
Not for a lot of the "general knife folks".

Phil will sharpen using a Norton Crystalon stone, then a few strokes on a white stone, then a few strokes on a leather strop.
The strop sometimes has some of the "debris" from the Norton stone mixed into it.
His other suggestion is 600 grit diamond and a strop.

He wants a bit of toothy. His Vietnamese wife a chef/cook, I forget, is one that gives feed back to his geometry, heat treat, and sharpening.

There is a place for small sharp things, and for them to be sharp and polished.

A Jig repeats the same motion over and over. It does not allow one to properly sharpen a tool nor polish it to its best effectiveness.

If one engraves , by hand, using a graver, they will use tool steel, to engrave carbon and stainless steels.
The cuts made are polished, as they are cut.

Those fine intricate designs to not allow one to get inside them and polish.
Same principle for "bright cutting a diamond".
That diamond is going into a gold or platinum "plate". The hole is drilled, the diamond setter measure stone, depth of plate and gets the plate ready to accept the girdle.
Today's "brilliant cut" diamonds, the rounds are much easier. Diamonds were not always "brilliant" or "ideal cut".
Just like they do not make pear , marquise , emerald, or oval cut "burrs" that will cut pear, marquise , emerald, or oval 'holes'.

You never could chuck up a "burr" or use a jig, to cut these. Nor could one with a old mine, or other diamond cut.

The diamond setter sharpens his tool steel gravers and strops on a pc of leather, and uses oil of wintergreen as lubricant, as he /she slices gold or plat with a graver.
He/she cuts what is not needed to fit the stone into that plate.
A 'bead' is kicked up onto the diamond.
Meaning one had better not slip, and one can break a diamond so that sharp pc of steel need to be sharp. It also needs to cut "bright" as one does not need to screw up craftsmanship, with "polish".

Diamonds are 10 on the moh scale. Ruby and Sapphire are next , running 8.25 to 9.
Emerald is much softer and if that graver is not sharp, it will break a emerald in a heartbeat. Opals and Pearls rap up the seriousness of a sharp tool being effective.

Beading tool rounds that kicked up gold/plat. One that stone is secure, it is now a matter of the craftsman removing what is not needed by "Bright-Cutting" the metal out.
Some will use a "milgrain tool" to give the itty bitty beaded appearance, many instead cut each one of those by hand, using a "liner" or a sharp pocket knife with a small thin blade sharpened and polished.

The Master Polisher, knows to not touch that plate , bright cut, by hand and is polished. They will finish out correctly , often times by hand, the rest of the piece.
If the diamond is set into Plat, or White Gold, it is cleaned , and if the water beads, it means the pc still has oil or grease. When the water streams off, it is clean.
The item is masked using nail polish, "remove what needs removing only". So the White metal is left.
Rhodium is a whiter and harder, so that plate and the stone are "Flashed" or Rhodium Plated.
Acetone Removes the nail polish, the total pc cleaned and handled with gloves or smooth wooden tweezers.

Same principles apply to hand engraving a firearm, a knife, Sterling Silver punch bowl,


Define: effective, small, sharp, polish, and tasks.

I sorta have my own definitions of these.

When the criminals enter a setting, firing guns, and breaking up the joint, they have just un-nerved folks and gotten inside the mindset loop.
Employees are forced onto the floor, and concealed guns are removed from them.

One has a tendency to not argue with a shotgun barrel at the base of the skull, or a .44 mag revolver pressed against the forehead.

What is done is done. They own the employees, and they own the joint. Now the deal is to survive . Mdse is insured, it can be replaced, people cannot be replaced.

Zip ties, duct tape, and sisal rope ties up and shuts up employees.
The criminals take what they came for and leave.
Nobody got shot, none of the ladies were taken to the back and sexually assaulted or raped.

A small pen knife, is accessed, it is a small , effective defensive tool. It rarely gets anything but a coarse stone, and stropped on leather, dry.
It simply bites, and cuts.
It cuts the rope of another employee, and the same knife is used to cut cable ties.

That knife was accessible with both hands tied behind the back. There is one accessible if hands are tied in front, and there may be other "accessibles" on person.

The Police are called direct, the clean up and dealing with aftermath begins.

-
The sales rep was caught by surprise, and tied and tossed into the truck of criminals vehicle, her guns had been removed from her person.

Bad enough to get taken down, and your mdse taken, it is even worse when you are lady, and these criminals raping you and letting someone hear this rape happening, will force them to open a business and get more goodies.

That young lady had a small sharp knife, she cut her hands free, then her legs in that trunk, she had practiced on many makes and models as to how to open a trunk.
Lady Luck showed, and the vehicle slowed down from having gone faster, it kept slowing and just before it stopped, she was out and running!

She escaped, some pretty nasty plans by two criminals.
Her mdse was recovered, the punks rounded up, and the other business was not forced opened due to her rape sounds.

Her larger knife, was taken off her person...

Her small knife was a Sterling Silver , B.A. Ballou key chain knife with a single blade.
I gave her that knife and I used a small diamond needle file, ~ 300 grit, to make that little bit of edge - "toothy".
She was able to access that knife, with her hands tied in front.

It cut, screw the contests on cutting rope and paper, that knife was that sharp to cut what needed for the "contest" of not being raped.

s
 
sm, all true. The problem here (speaking in defensive and tool terms) is that the characteristics of S30V really show in mirror finished edges.

I would ask that you research the professionals discuss this issue in the Keeping Sharp section of KnifeForums.

No matter what style of sharpening system you use, S30V is just more metal until it's a mirror.

I hope down the road JShirley sends me his S30V short blade for further tests, or he seeks out a Razel.
 
Well....
About that SV30 bidness. *rut-roe*

I have messed with it, and I did pay attention to what you said about mirror finish.
It depends on that steel and whom heat treated it. In my experience and observations.

Ain't no absolutes and I have found some SV30 actually performs better for me, and the owners if it has a wittle bit of toothy.

Err...currently I ain't got nuttin' to sharpen with. This has to do with some Veterans needing stuff to whittle with in Rehab and some 'Nam Vet assisting these lady and gent Vets and kids, and family in whittling.
*smile*

Now this SV30 for me, "gets on down" with a Norton Crystalon coarse, about the same as the DMT/Lanksy/EZ-Lap "coarse".
Removing metal is removing metal and just gimmee metal and something to do it with.

Now I am looking at this under 10x and sometimes higher magnification.
[Yeah I seem to have lost my Bauch & Lomb 10x and 20x loupes too...]
So the inexpensive optics I am using, are not as good as to what I am used to using, still , they work. <teeters hand>

I do my thang and kick er on down using some old tricks and I get this mirror finish on SV30.
Here is the kicker. I was able to "whittle" a mustache hair , I knew the instant I did, I had goofed up, going to "mirror".

10x +20x so essentially 30x and I have removed my glasses and in the edge, I can my eye reflection.

Now there is a unwritten rule about never using a "tree product" to get a high polish, that is why the eyeglass places and makers of Optics, strongly suggest one clean eye glasses and optics with a cloth.

Cardboard is essentially "brown clay and dirt" and newspaper is essentially "white clay and dirt" and is abrasive. This "tree product" might be wood, still after it is made into paper towels (brown or white) or napkins, even tissues, it will leave scratches.

Now wood by itself "can" be such it does not "scratch" depending on the wood and how hard. Hard Maple is one example. Get a piece of hard maple, baby butt smooth, and do not put anything on it, and it will surprise folks as to what it does as a "strop".

Another old old trick is taking a good hard wood, baby butt smooth and painting it with John Deere Green paint. That paint has Chromium, and chromium does neat thing in regard to polishing steel.

Hence the reason I suggest Green Rouge, as it has chromium, when folks asks what they can get to put onto a strop.
Rouge comes in Red, White, Blue, Black and Green. Each one works "best" for certain metals.

Now I had two knives exact, except for steel. One was SV30 and the other ATS-34.
The ATS-34 out performed the SV30, with a mirror polished edge.
So I ever so slightly made the SV30 "toothy". I actually did this by hand, using a 1200 grit diamond dealie.
Actually going to 800 grit diamond toothy was best.
The only diamond grits I see listed by most diamond stone folks are 1200, 600, 400, 200, and 120.
800 grit diamond and 800 grit Norton emery paper seems to work best on that steel of SV30, heat treated as it is.

My gut says, rap up the hardness Rcs on SV30, and it will perform even better with a 1200 grit toothy.
Just enough bite.

What I want is to strop any burr. And I prefer to do this with a dry strop,and I may use leather, genuine chamois leather, or 100% cotton denim.

It is extremely easy to to go past "effective polish". This is the same reason one is advised to strop lightly, meaning just the weight of the blade on the strop.

Polish compound will get one into trouble.
Now leaving a toothy edge, and very lightly using a compound on a strop and not striving to "polish" will benefit a edge, for a user. Again, there is no one-size-fits-all.

The edge is alleviated of burr, the high spots of toothy are ever so slightly "polished" and the un polished tooth assists in not only bite, cutting also edge retention due to some big words I forget and cannot spell right anyway.
I just know what it means, and what it is about.

Where folks get into trouble is:
a. improper methods.
b. improper tools , equipment and supplies for task.
c. they do the same for everything.

What a person does with a Razel, is not the same for someone that uses a old old Old Timer with 1095, and is not the same as what a person with a Queen Whittler in D2 does.

If one sharpens, all three the same, one is not going to get the same performance for task, nor edge retention.

The steel will not let this happen, nor will geometry or heat treat.

Old Timers, with 1095 were good knives until about mid 70's, then Shrade starting letting heat treat "slide". The old ones will sharpen better and retain edges better than those made after about mid 70's.
Case pulled the same stunt.
There is difference in Case CV today, than in the 80's, and the ones before the 80's even better.
Find a 60's Old Timer and Case with CV, and compare, there is that much of a noticable difference.

Yes, the small knives are effective. Remember, many folks only had one pocket knife, and they used it for everything. It could have been a carbon, tool steel, or one of the "stainless steels" of the day.
The old ones were made right, had geometry and heat treat, and came sharp out of the box. These were for "users".
We have "collectors" today.
They do not use a knife, so all they need is a stainless steel sorta heat treated as it is not going to actually cut anything.

There was a time, folks were taught how to stay safe, and taught "offensive" use of tools to stay safe, and the "defensive" use of tools.
They could buy a small knife, and be effective in staying safe.
The Christy Knife is another example. Oh these were great!
These have stopped serious threats! These knives today are not the knives of yesteryear either.

Go find a Old Timer with 1095 or a Case with CV of late 60's to early 70's vintage.
Get a 3" closed pattern.
See how many rabbits, squirrels, it can take care of, how many ducks.
Get someone in the butcher bidness to let you cut some meat, or go mark cattle, with that small knife.

Now just freehand sharpen it with a Norton Crystalon, coarse/fine stone, hit it a few licks with a Case Arkansas Hard and strop on your blue jeans.

These beat out many of the newer offerings on the market today, made of newer steels, sharpened with doo-dads.

Yes they will.
That is why they are being bought up as fast as folks can find them.
Same reason folks want that Old Timer Sharpfinger, and Western line of cutlery , including sheath knives.

*yep*
 
My little Buck Hartsook is S30V, and it seems to work better with a bit of tooth to the edge. Since I use it as my unfolding pen knife, it gets used on alot of stuff. Once in a while it needs a touch up like any knife. My pocket hone is in my wallet.

I carry a cut down Eze-lap diamnd home, the flat one with a red plastic handle, with most of the plastic handle cut off. It's in the zipper compartment of my wallet, so when the blade starts cutting ragged, out it comes. Only takes a minute and a couple strokes on each side to bring it back. But if I strop it, it does not cut as well as right of the hone. At home I use the Norton carborunum stone in the kitchen drawer. Works good too.

I've found for most things, I like a toothy blade thats a bit less than razor edge shaving sharp. Works better on rope and cloth, and meat.
 
Carl,
Everyone I have heard with that Buck, says the same thing.
I bet your diamond is 600 grit or "fine".

Err, no. I ain't telling what other old knives I carried and like. I am selfish.
I shared Old Timers and Case, thems the only ones you get to hear about.

My customs were 01, 1095, Vacowear, 52100, 440C, ATS-34.
Vacowear is some neat stuff Maynard!

I actually like ATS-34 over D2 and SV30.

Somebody around here is going to get some sketches of mine for some customs I used to have and someday would like again.
I know the steels I want these made from.
Just some small knives, fixed...
 
Hi JShirley,

Great forum here, I really enjoy everything about it.

The belt knife topic is awesome!

It would really be great if you could get a hold of a Graham Razel, the 3 inch ringed version, as you seem to prefer greater length, in S30V steel. Maybe ask the Tourist to polish it and wave a dead chicken over it for greater Mojo.

Let us know how you like it, and maybe test it out as to your preferences.

I have the shorter Stubby in 440 (I think) that I really like a ton! Chico saved it from the depths of hell after I tried to get it sharper. It came back with a mirror polish, and continues to put the scare in a stringer of bullheads!

Later,

Kerry
 
sm, ya' caught me in a big no-no. That being "never assume."

Being a reseller, I can buy and use what I wish. I've become a snob. When you mentioned HT, it dawned on me that it's never a factor I consider much. For example, who does the HT?

For Graham, it's Paul Bos.

For Strider, it's Paul Bos.

For Emerson, it was Paul Bos, it still might be.

Follow my line of thinking. I have come to the point in life where I don't even buy Pakistani door stops.

So when I go looking for a new knife in S30V, I call my friends and business associates. They have attained that status because they like top shelf tools as much as I do.

BTW, ask Josh some time if you can check out his personal S30V Razel. Careful now...
 
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