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Small ring Mauser in 458 socom idea?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by adcoch1, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    Been thinking about a bolt gun in 45 cal and pricing out barrels in 458 socom for savage rifles. I also have been casually thinking about a small ring mauser, since the pressure levels are low if I stick with the socom. I love mausers, and I don't presently have one other than my cz mini mauser.

    My question is weather or not pursuing a mauser is a reasonable idea when savage barrels are so affordable. I could also build a much bigger 45 cal in a savage, but I am already set up to load for the socom.
     
  2. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    If I were spending money and had a smith willing to do work on metric threads, I think a Howa or CZ mini action 458socom could be very intriguing.
     
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  3. Jessesky

    Jessesky Member

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    If doing a full size Mauser, may as well go to 458 win or 45-70. The mini actions do sound interesting
     
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  4. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    I had a 24/47 i did in 458 American, it was very fun.
     
  5. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    I think the socom is wider the the 527 magazine. I would be fun tho.
     
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  6. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Could be fun. You're gonna suppress, though, right? If not, it'd make sense to go with a bigger cartridge in a large ring IMO.

    Small rings can't take that kind of bolt thrust.
     
  7. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    My thoughts on the mini, I would have to build a completely different magazine, but a Howa mini would work...
    yeah going to suppress it, and the subsonic socom seems like a nice pressure level for the small ring action. If I am going with a long action I would go real big with a 458 wm or a 458 lott and drive really heavy stuff. But in a socom it gives me an option to use a small ring.
     
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  8. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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  9. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    No need to build magazines. Just bottom metal to accept AR mags.
     
  10. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    i am surprised no place has not made a bottom metal yet. i think they would sell good.
     
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  11. Random 8

    Random 8 Member

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    If you love Mausers, absolutely build a Mauser, you won't be happy with anything else. A Savage build would absolutely be less expensive and easier, but you're building an expensive toy you don't really need, so who cares about price and practicality. If you're looking for wood and steel, I think a fast handling carbine "Mannlicher style" would be exceptionally cool in this caliber for short range work on game.
     
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  12. ontarget

    ontarget Member

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    If someone ever does I hope the use a different type of mag release. That's my only gripe about my mini in 223. Way too easy to accidentally release the mag.
     
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  13. tactikel

    tactikel Member

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    What are you using it for? A suppressed hog gun, deer in cover, SD? For these the Socom is great, for any thing more a more stout load (.45-70?) would serve you better.
     
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  14. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    The bottom metal isnt the only issue, you would need to open up the bottom of the receiver quite a bit on the cz 527. On the howa mini it would be a lot easier I think.
     
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  15. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    Deer and bear in thick cover and a big camp gun. I really would like to suppress it since a bolt gun would be quite a bit quieter than my ar. Maybe integrally suppressed, but if I went that route I'd probably have to do it on a Savage just for ease of barrel removal
     
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  16. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    if i had the money i have seen some interarms mini mausers for under $500.
     
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  17. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    We open Remington’s all of the time for AW mags... anyone with a mill and some know how. Wouldn’t work as well for a stagger feed 5.56, but the 458’s run centerfeed.
     
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  18. Alaskan Ironworker

    Alaskan Ironworker Member

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    I thought of doing the same thing only with .450 bushmaster. It seems the concensus is that you need a magazine spacer if you plan on using a 94 or 96 or other small ring mauser, otherwise you face poor feeding (nose dives) with AR length cartridges. I noticed numrich sells a 7.62x39 barrel and mag spacer kit for small rings, wonder if the spacer would work for .450 or .458 socom. I have a 94 swede with a shot out barrel that might turn into a project.https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/48800
     
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  19. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    Opening the cz is a problem (or I believe it would be) due to how narrow the receiver is on the bottom. Might be too little metal there to open it up that far. A regular sized action would be no problem.

    The 7.62x39 follower and spacer would be a great place to start with standard mauser bottom metal and mag box, I was looking at those too...
     
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  20. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Few things to consider about the Mauser 93-98 series. These had receivers, bolts, and magazines, designed around the cartridge used by that model by Peter Mauser himself along with his engineers. You might say that these were built around the cartridge used. Anyone changing the cartridge in a particular model type will need to adjust those parameters to the particular cartridge shape that you want to fire for reliable feeding.

    Usually a 93 will need alterations to the flat bottomed bolt as well which can affect its ability to safely handle higher pressure cartridges. It is not a recommended practice to grind these for a cartridge conversion as the bolts are case hardened and require reheat treatment after grinding through the case hardening for safety reasons. That is one of the reasons that 95 bolts are so scarce while the 93 bolts are fairly common is because of conversions.

    Sometimes, the Mauser feed ramp is a problem for some cartridge feedings and it is NOT recommended to grind or alter these to make these thinner for better cartridge feeding. Remember, these are case hardened carbon steel and once the surface hardness is gone, they are pretty soft inside.

    Mauser conversions tend to feed best without a lot of adjustments when the conversion cartridge uses a similar profile cartridges for which it was designed. Thus, the conversions that stay within the 7x57 and 8x57 cartridge families work well with less problems as there are less factors to address in conversions such as OAL differences, use of cartridge followers, etc. Outside of those, cartridge conversions often requires alterations or new specific parts to the extractor, bolt face, follower, magazine, feed ramps, and feed rails of the receiver.

    The problem with removable magazines is it requires retrofitting a design and making sure that the magazine feeds from a consistent position and so forth and interacts with the bolt, extractor, and properly ejects as well as the feed ramps properly to ensure feeding.

    If you want a rimmed cartridge, better to go with the Siamese Mauser receiver or an SMLE/No. 4 for something like a .45-70 conversion. It is best to minimize complications on conversions unless you are a bored machinist with time on your hands, otherwise time is money and employing a skilled gunsmith/machinist can get a mite expensive to iron out problems. More modern designs do not have those particular problems but have others which people above have well addressed.

    There is a reason that strange conversions of rifles lurk on the back shelves of gun stores gathering dust generally at cheap prices. Safety, reliability, aesthetics, and inability to get parts/ammo/etc. often leave these rifles on the shelves, if not taken apart for the remaining viable parts.
     
  21. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    Thanks for the commentary Boom Boom, this is the stuff I've been weighing in my mind about this project. A Savage 10 or a ruger American would be a lot easier, and after looking for a mauser action for a few weeks, probably a LOT cheaper too. I just love working on guns though, and while I would never call myself a machinist, I am creative with my lathe and mill. Anyway, food for thought...
     
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  22. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    You are the type that could get it done if you don't mind spending a lot of time on the magazine design or alterations. M98 actions are easier to deal with from an aftermarket parts issue on things like detachable magazines. Due to a restoration job, I found myself with multiple m93 receivers due to circumstances and let me say that there is a reason why the 94-96 are different in a better way. If you were to use one, the Mauser 94&96 illustrate good craftsmanship but have a significantly larger case head which might or might not be an advantage and are designed for the long 6.5x55 cartridge for your particular project. The 95 is an improved 93 and a bit easier to adapt.

    One thing that might or might not pique your interest. Sarco has a few Mauser bolts that were designed for fitting a removable bolt head for pretty cheap, I believe these are FN made. I have no idea about the heat treatment of these etc. as I bought two for some future one shot .22 LR Mauser conversions that will use scrap receivers. If the heat treatment is up to spec, then it might be possible to fit whatever bolt head for a conversion that you wished without fooling around with re heat treatment from bolt head alterations on a std. Mauser.

    My running long on some posts comes about because I have found that random google searches bring up THR posts on a variety of subjects as high ranked links so we now have TWO audiences--the THR crowd and those brought in by random searches who may undertake ill advised actions based on incomplete information. Unfortunately, that means boring those with adequate knowledge.
     
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  23. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    I ask questions here to cultivate that kind of info, trying to piece together data can be a pain! So many of the people here have enormous amounts of info, and the gun community is slowly losing this knowledge as the old timers pass on. I am one of the more knowledgeable gun guys in my circles, and I don't even know that much!

    I have been curious as to how much better the 95/96 Mausers are than the 93. I have had a few 93s and a few 98s, both a commercial one and a couple surplus ones. Never had a 95 or a 96 to play with though...
     
  24. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    For an overall comparison of the different Mausers, Jerry Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual on them does a good job going from part to part comparisons with quite a few pictures. His general observations were based on numerous conversions and rifles coming through his shop during the great heyday of military surplus.

    These are simply my observations and I have examples of the 93-98 Mauser models and some others as well and restored some of these to military issue condition.

    The 1895 actions were German built and display finer workmanship with a round bolt and a bolt handle lug recess in the receiver. They were made by Ludwig and Loewe (these are antiques). M95's were exports to South America, particularly Chile in 7x57 Mauser and possibly some other countries (South Africa during the Boer Wars). There is an 1894 Mauser design for 7x57 that were exported to Brazil as well that are generally in pretty bad shape which I believe also used a round bolt but no bolt handle lug recess in the receiver while the chilean mausers are usually in pretty good shape.

    There are some variants of the 1893 Spanish Mauser including the most common, the 1916 models. Some of the earlier ones were made in Germany, I believe from the Oberndorf factory but I do not discount the possiblity of DMW or Ludwig and Loewe made ones. Pretty much all of these used an early squared bottom bolt that was designed to feed better--it didn't. The Spaniards set up Oviedo arsenal for Mauser production pretty early but not sure that any of those made it to the New World in time for the Spanish American war. My personal impression is that the Oviedo products are of softer steel by an large and do not demonstrate as high workmanship on fit and finish as do the German or Czech makes. The Swedes, by specifying their steel be used, demonstrate high levels of fit and finish regardless of whether they are the earlier German make (Oberndorf factory) or at the Carl Gustaf's state arsenal (some were also made around WWII by Husquavarna that are of very high quality). The Swede bolts will not fit in a non Swede action btw due to cartridge differences.

    The Swede cartridge and its oversized case head (.480) compared with the 7x57 (.473) is one difference along with the Swede generally being slightly larger in diameter measurements at the base, shoulder and of course bullet with a shorter cartridge case. The Swede also had a marginally higher pressure than the 7x57 issued at the time (this is one of those areas where experts dispute exactly how hot issued ammo was around the turn of the century--it is not helped by the fact that the early smokeless powders often demonstrated quite wide variance in pressures and were temperature sensitive--so that a 7x57 fired in a warmer climate might be higher in actual pressure than a 6.5x55 used in a relatively cold climate despite the nominal cartridge specifications).

    Slamfire, a THR regular has some long informative threads on this and other boards involving steels and heat treatments of the various Mausers and Springfields of the era.

    http://www.hoosiergunworks.com/catalog/mauser_reference.html

    Now, as far as the .458 SOCOM goes, it looks like you could do such a conversion, it would take some work to adjust to a detachable magazine or to use the fixed magazine and would require some sort of blocking--maybe feed rail adjustments. A Spanish, Swede, or Chilean Mauser should be able to take the pressure as specified.

    Rhineland arms has one demonstrated in .450 Bushmaster which is close to what you want which uses a barrel nut system, ala Savage type, to adjust for headspace. http://www.troupsystems.com/product/mauser-450-bushmaster-bull-barrels/

    The Rhineland Arms conversions might give you some ideas.
     
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