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Smallest Elephant Cartridge

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Action_Can_Do, Aug 1, 2006.

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  1. Action_Can_Do

    Action_Can_Do Member

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    Hello Everyone. I was hoping to find out what the smallest legal elephant hunting cartridge is and what the most common one is. I realize that the law probably varies country to country, but I figure there must be a general standard.
     
  2. carpettbaggerr

    carpettbaggerr Member

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  3. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    "smallest legal elephant hunting cartridge"

    .375 H&H is THE MINIMUM for dangerous game in most countries.

    If you can afford an elephant hunt you can likely afford a pricier rifle and caliber.
     
  4. mete

    mete Member

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    While Bell used a 7x57 or 6.5 Mannlicher ,don't leave out the rest of the story. He was one of the best shots in Africa ,he knew elephant anatomy better than anyone else, so he could place FMJ bullets into the brain from any angle .Those two cartridges DO penetrate very well.....Today the sensible and legal minimum is the 375 H&H. Other common ones are the 416 Rigby, 458 Win, 470.
     
  5. uk roe hunter

    uk roe hunter Member

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    commonly used elephant calibre

    Sadly i think most elephants are shot with 7.62 x 39 bursts from an AK these days.:uhoh:
     
  6. 'Card

    'Card Member

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    [​IMG]

    I'm thinking 12-gauge #6 birdshot may be the way to go on this one.
     
  7. Impala

    Impala Member

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    oh god, not dumbo, for him you'll need a quad .50 with anti-aircraft sights.

    In the June issue of G&A there was an article entitled "The Modern African Battery" the smallest cartridge I think the author mentioned was a .325 WSM, but I may be wrong
     
  8. Spec ops Grunt

    Spec ops Grunt Member

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    I at least want a .375 H&H. I still don't see why anyone would want to kill an elephant.
     
  9. Dave P

    Dave P Member

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    "Smallest Elephant"

    Didn't PT barnum have the worlds smallest?

    Do you need a special lisence for the small ones? I have heard that a 22 behind the ear is all you need. :neener:
     
  10. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    The minimum caliber for elephant in most countries is a .375H&H. A few countries allow a 9.3.

    Depending on where you are hunting will depend on what a sensible minimum should be.

    In the thick jesse a hard hitting .458 Diameter such as the Lott, Rigby, Dakota ETC are a sensible minimum. Some even recommend nothing smaller than a .500 for these conditions. The .416 Rigby is also a fine choice in my opinon.

    I have never felt under gunned with a .458 Lott or a .470NE using quality solids.

    In more open country a .375 is just great if and only if you know exactly how to place a brain shot from any angle. The .375 has plenty of penetration but it doesn't have any stop on an elephant. A .500NE will knock an elephant off of it's feet even if the brain is missed.

    UK Roe hunter,

    Your statement is only very marginally true. There are certain areas where elephant poaching is still rampant. Mostly in Kenya the Sudan and the Congo. These countries all have one thing in common. They do not allow legal sport hunting of elephants and or are having a war in progress.

    Areas that allow sport hunting of elephants have very little or no poaching they have abundant and growing elephant populations and in fact some of these countries such as Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, South Africa, and Zambia have elephant overpopulation problems at the present time.

    Spec ops grunt,

    That is why we should hunt elephants. Because hunting assigns monetary value to a natural resource , in this case elephants, through license fees and jobs associated with the hunting of said species. When an animal becomes valuable as a natural and renewable resource it becomes financially sound and profitable to protect and grow said resource.

    If the animal has no monetary value besides a quick buck from some ivory it will be wiped out such as it has been in anithunter friendly Kenya and other non sport hunting African countries.

    I hope that helps to answer your question as to why anybody would want to hunt an elephant.

    Greg
     
  11. uk roe hunter

    uk roe hunter Member

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    elephant hunting

    Hi Greg,
    i watched a documentrty the other day on tv about over population of elephant and the value of hunting, i agree it is the way forward to give them a monetry value higher for them hunted then for ivory.

    steve
     
  12. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Steve,

    Thank you for your reply.

    That sport hunting actually protects and improves the long term survivability of a species is a very difficult concept for people understand.

    Even the vast majority of hunters in the USA don't understand it because we don't have a trophy fee system as is used in Africa where one pays a license fee then pays a daily fee to hunt and if successful pays a fee for each animal collected.

    In the USA we just pay a license fee which is very minimal for residents of the state in which the hunting is done. It is very difficult for the average hunter to understand that with out his license fee's and the fee's collected in taxes from his sporting goods purchases we would have far fewer game animals and more importantly less open country to hunt them.

    Our fee system here in the USA is very transparent when compared to many other hunting locations.

    I would guess that in the UK one must pay the land owner a daily fee and a collection fee for his buck?

    In Africa there are three types of areas generally hunted. Private ranches, Government hunting blocks and communal areas. In the last two types of areas they are usually vast blocks of land with little or no human inhabitation. And they are kept wild and uninhabited with fees from sport hunters and sport hunters fees ONLY.

    Without these fees these vast tracts of land would have been settled long ago and the animals would have disappeared. In cases like Kenya where this has happened due to the cessation of sport hunting. There are no wild animals left outside of their various national and private game parks.

    If the international anti hunting lobby ever gets it s way and stops sport hunting in Africa there will be a massive and rapid kill off of most of the continents remaining wild game. It's been proven time and again.:(
     
  13. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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  14. pat86323

    pat86323 Member

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    Ok im really not trying to be unpleasant or a joykill here, but we need to keep in mind.....NOTHING WE CARRY WILL KNOCK DOWN AN ELEPHANT! In order to consistantly knock down anything big game sized the cardridge that you are shooting would be so powerful that no one would ever shoot it for fear of their own lives. Its a simple lesson of physics "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" So a cartridge capable of knocking down an elephant would flip a jeep when you pulled the trigger. Same as a cardridge that would knock down a deer would send an average sized man bouncing probably 5 or six feet back.
    I know that this post is sorta irrelevant....but i keep seeing things about rounds thatl "take said target off of its feet". And for some reason i just really felt the need to post the little physics lesson. Think about that the next time someone tells you about how a 300 winmag will send a deer bouncing.
     
  15. Matt G

    Matt G Moderator Emeritus

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    Pat, of course you're absolutely correct. Nothing man-carried will literally blow an elephant off of it's feet. :) Nor, despite Hollywood's insistence to the contrary, will anything short of high-explosive rounds lift a man out of his tracks.

    But I feel compelled to answer for Greg (H&H Hunter), who had said, "A .500NE will knock an elephant off of it's feet even if the brain is missed."

    Greg is knowledgible, and knows the physics involved (trust me!). What he means is, a hit to the head --but not the brain-- will still cause enough shock to the animal that it will keel over. Often central nervous system shocks cause quadrapeds to stiffen their legs and literally tip over, giving the very real impression of having "knocked them off their feet."

    While it is true that Greg is referring to that odd calculus that we call "knockdown power," he is NOT trying to claim that a one-ounce projectile can drive a 7 ton critter off the ground for any distance. But the hephalump will most assuredly NOT be on its feet when the dust settles. :)
     
  16. Spec ops Grunt

    Spec ops Grunt Member

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    I can understand hunting for population control, or for food. I just don't see the point to trophy hunting.
     
  17. Oldnamvet

    Oldnamvet Member

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    Keeping a trophy is OK

    The game isn't thrown away. It is still eaten and since it is a licensed kill, it is population control. Some hunters just like to keep something of the animal to remember it. So they have it mounted, have the hide tanned, etc. If they don't see a trophy animal, many times they don't shoot anything. The challenge is everything.

    A recent story on elephants and how agressive they have become, killing about 600 people a year, was interesting. Seems like they had been culling the herds for years, always taking the big bulls. So the young bulls had no one to teach them "respect" and they were overly agressive. Took to killing people just for the hell of it. Sort of like how some game law violators operate.
     
  18. mete

    mete Member

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    Protein is never wasted in Africa.On one of the TV programs they showed that after the elephant was killed a swarm of villagers came and cut up the meat .That was a BIG job. The meat was greatly appreciated !!
     
  19. T.R.

    T.R. Member

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    Several decades ago, Eleanor O'Connor took a good sized bull with Jack's 30-06. The bullets were machined from solid bronze and heat treated with a torch and quench tank.

    Just shows what a tough bullet and proper shot placement can be accomplished with the old 30-06!!
    TR
     
  20. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Pat,

    What Matt said...

    I am refering to stopping an elephant with a head shot. The .500 and up express and nitro calibers give a hunter a much wider margin of error in regards to a head shot. Which is the ONLY way to stop a charging elephant.

    The larger the diameter heavier bullets cause a greater radius of brain shock in an elephants skull which gives greater "knock down" ability when faced with a charge. For example as rule of thumb a .500NE will allow a hunter to miss the brain by as much as 6 or 8 inches and still put down a bull elephant where a .375H&H must contact brain matter to do the same.

    What you said is absolutely correct there is nothing we use in sport hunting that will knock an elephant off it's feet with out breaking major bone or hitting or shocking the brain or CNS.

    If you are truly interested in this there is a great instructional video out on elephant hunting, shot placement and the difference in calibers on elephants in regards to what we are speaking about. It can be found at www.cmsafaris.com

    There is a HUGE difference in stopping ability between even a .470 NE and a .500NE it is truly amazing watch.
     
  21. TomFromTheShade

    TomFromTheShade Member

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    I wouldn't hesitate to shoot my .375 Holland & Holland. I have faith that it would get where it needs to go. I have shot end to end through anything it has ever hit. I haven't ever shot anything the bulk of an elephant before, but I would give it a shot...or four LOL.
     
  22. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I am not sure what you mean by the meat not being wasted. Something will eat it, but it isn't always people. It may be that canned hunts are set up such that kill surplus is used by locals, but this isn't the case with poaching or the killing of taboo animals. Protein is most definitely not always utilized fully by people, especially when they don't know about it or have an aversion to consuming what is killing.
     
  23. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Double,

    Since you seem to be a bona fide African lore and taboo expert could you please supply us here at THR with a list of "taboo" animals. Please do so by region and tribe starting in the cape and working north to the Mediterranean.

    Or even just one example would be fine. Tarzan movies don't count.

    Who here was refering to canned hunting? That is pretty hard to arrange with elephant, with a few exceptions in the republic of South Africa.

    PS

    Did you ever come up with an answer to my previous question about your feelings towards animal rights?
     
  24. Kahr T9

    Kahr T9 Member

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    Why use a rifle at all??

    Fred Bear killed an elephant with a recurve bow and arrow...of course each component was custom made for the job. The bow was a 75 lb pull and the arrows were oversized in length and diameter to get enough mass for penetration. Certainly, a couple of back up gunners can give you the courage to try something like this. :what:
     
  25. USMC_2674

    USMC_2674 Member

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    Visit the excalibur crossbow website to see footage of an elephant being killed with one of their crossbows.

    Someone has to say it.

    Even a .22 LR will put an elephant down if you shoot it in just the right place ;)

    Semper Fidelis!
     
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