Smushed primers, and reloading manuals

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CopperClad

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So I've been doing some 308 win load development.
Components as follows:
Starline brass new, annealed
Sierra 168 hpbt #2200 [new, just opened]
Accurate 4064 [new, just opened]
Federal GM210M match primers*

* THESE PRIMERS ARE FROM 1996, BOUGHT NEW BY ME AND RECENTLY OUT OF STORAGE.



Started load development at 41.9gr (book min) increasing in .5 gr increments to 46gr. Loaded 6 of each so I could repeat for accuracy if a three shot string needed to be rechecked.

I only shot from the first four loadings, all load groupings had flattened primers in them. Each of the four load points shot ok, recoil and report was normal. But the primers look odd.

I'm considering breaking down the remaining loads and starting over with brand new primers

So I'm open to suggestions, including reloading my ladder with other brass from the same lot, with either new production GM210M or BR2 primers I now have on the shelf.

KIMG0161.JPG
 
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Low pressure.
The firing pin is holding the cartridge forward through the combustion sequence. The primer is flowing around the firing pin and neither is the case being set back against the bolt face, nor primer being reseated back into the primer pocket.
You are likely at or below starting point in most loading manuals.
 
Those look fine to me. When you fired them, we're there any other peculiarities?
None. My lowest were most accurate and opened immediately as I went up the ladder, I stopped early, was getting tired.
-------
@GooseGestapo , I considered that. Hornaday loads for this combo start at ...oh #%$@ what have I done. Just cracked the book and compared to the Western page I started with. Major discrepancy.

First I started loading with this page from Western [5th ed. pg42], printed from their site directly.
KIMG0166.JPG

I just cracked open the Hornady manual I received yesterday [11th ed. pg 510] and the loads are very, very different. For the same powder.
The note is my key to track the ladder at the range.
KIMG0165.JPG

---I stopped at 43.4gr [4 dot, my key] . I'll will tear down the remaining loads tomorrow and start over from Hornady's 11th Edition.

Meanwhile I've some emails to write.
---
 
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So I've been doing some 308 win load development.
Components as follows:
Starline brass new, annealed
Sierra 168 hpbt #2200 [new, just opened]
Accurate 4064 [new, just opened]
Federal GM210M match primers*

* THESE PRIMERS ARE FROM 1996, BOUGHT NEW BY ME AND RECENTLY OUT OF STORAGE.



Started load development at 41.9gr (book min) increasing in .5 gr increments to 46gr. Loaded 6 of each so I could repeat for accuracy if a three shot string needed to be rechecked.

I only shot from the first four loadings, all load groupings had flattened primers in them. Each of the four load points shot ok, recoil and report was normal. But the primers look odd.

I'm considering breaking down the remaining loads and starting over with brand new primers

So I'm open to suggestions, including reloading my ladder with other brass from the same lot, with either new production GM210M or BR2 primers I now have on the shelf.

View attachment 1078793
Well that’s interesting, for sure. I never noticed the Sierra app doesn’t list AA4064 for that bullet.
A1690AE2-8681-4C81-A5FF-4F5EA225B9CF.jpeg
 
I just cracked open the Hodgdon manual I received yesterday [11th ed. pg 510] and the loads are very, very different. For the same powder.
The note is my key to track the ladder at the range.


Based on that pic you put in I believe you meant to say Hornady unless I'm missing something? Hornady data is typically always much lower than any other data source. Most of their test firearms are actual pistols and rifles and they don't list pressure data with their testing.

The powder company test data I always find to be a more reliable source of where the danger zone is since they include their pressure results as well.

Hornady's 11th edition was the first reloading manual I bought but it wasn't the last. I honestly barely use it for load data even when I'm loading their bullets.


Considering they're Federal primers, primers alone wouldn't be enough for me to think my load is getting too hot. Maybe if they were pierced or deeply cratered. If you want to back way down to Hornady's starting charge I say do what makes you feel safe but unless you have other pressure signs I'd say you're doing ok.
 
I've never had pressure from a Hornaday manual load... your using federal primers which show pressure. No mention on heavy bolt lift or any other indication of pressure... stopping because your tired or uncomfortable with where the test is going is a good answer. I'm not seeing a problem in your photos or description of events.... I'm testing with imr 4064 and haven't used the accurate version, but I will soon.
 
You don't have a pressure issue. You have case to chamber adhesion creating the flat primers.

I assume you sized the case around 0.003" less than the chamber. That's what I do, full length resize, bump the shoulder 0.003" from chamber. On ignition, the primer backs out of the primer pocket and pushes the case forward. If the cases are clean, the chamber is clean, the front of the case adheres to the chamber. But the primer is still backed out. Then as pressures build, the case sidewalls stretch, the case head touched the bolt face, and the primer is stuffed into the pocket, and because it was stuffed into the pocket when pressures are around 27,000 psia (according to Prof Boatwright, that is when 243 case sidewalls stretch) the primer is quite flat. So you see that flat primer and think you have pressures problems. You do not.

I regularly lubricate my new cases on their first firing. On firing, the case slides to the bolt face, the case shoulders fold out to fill the chamber, the case is stress free and perfectly fireformed.

gVfDIiq.jpg

T66hqbn.jpg

Vhr0qQj.jpg

And, primers are nice and round with below max loads. I in fact lube during load development, looking for the transition from rounded to flat. Which only tells me, I am above a maximum load, probably a grain above maximum load. I learned to lube my cases from a Distinguished HM gunsmith who took his cases all season in his M1a. The rule of thumb at the time was to shoot LC cases five times and toss them due to case head separations.

these FAL cases show the type of case head separations you get with dry cases in dry chambers. FAL's are brutal on cases. I recommend to FAL shooters, lube those cases!

8euIbcN.jpg

those other cases, I fired them in my M1a coated with Johnson paste wax. R stands for number of reloads, and if you notice, 23 reloads, 23 firings, no case head stretching, no internal ring, no sidewall stretch out of a M1a. Beat that. And, once I started lubing them, the primers went from flat to rounded. Obviously pressures had not changed within the case, so, something else was going on.

So, if the primers spook, take a tiny amount of case lube, and rub it on the case shoulders and neck. Or the whole case body. I have been using vasoline or hair gels, which are perfumed vasoline with thickeners. A thin amount is all you need. I used a lot of industrial greases and decided since fingers get in the mouth or eyes, I might as well use human rated greases. For match ammunition I spent the night before rubbing Johnson paste wax over the whole case, and then polishing the rapid fire rounds smooth. Slow fire, globs and swirls did not matter. But I had bolt over rides in cold weather during rapid fire stages with globby cases. Once I polished the case, no problemo what so ever. I shot out several M1a barrels and one M1 barrel with lubricated cases.

As a blast from the past, Pedersen used a ceresin wax mixture on his 276 Pedersen ammunition. The Pedersen rifle was a retarded blowback, and needed lubrication to function.

KMp8zlZ.jpg

Future General Hatcher well knew the need for lubricated cases, this is from 1933, and most of this is in his 1947 Hatcher's Notebook.

Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933

Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types, by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC.

Retarded Blow-back Mechanism………………………..

There is one queer thing, however, that is common to almost all blow-back and retarded blow-back guns, and that is that there is a tendency to rupture the cartridges unless they are lubricated. This is because the moment the explosion occurs the thin front end of the cartridge case swells up from the internal pressure and tightly grips the walls of the chamber. Cartridge cases are made with a strong solid brass head a thick wall near the rear end, but the wall tapers in thickness until the front end is quiet thin so that it will expand under pressure of the explosion and seal the chamber against the escape of gas to the rear. When the gun is fired the thin front section expands as intended and tightly grips the walls of the chamber, while the thick rear portion does not expand enough to produce serious friction. The same pressure that operates to expand the walls of the case laterally, also pushes back with the force of fifty thousand pounds to the square inch on the head of the cartridge, and the whole cartridge being made of elastic brass stretches to the rear and , in effect, give the breech block a sharp blow with starts it backward. The front end of the cartridge being tightly held by the friction against the walls of the chamber, and the rear end being free to move back in this manner under the internal pressure, either one of two things will happen. In the first case, the breech block and the head of the cartridge may continue to move back, tearing the cartridge in two and leaving the front end tightly stuck in the chamber; or, if the breech block is sufficiently retarded so that it does not allow a very violent backward motion, the result may simply be that the breech block moves back a short distance and the jerk of the extractor on the cartridge case stops it, and the gun will not operate.

However this difficultly can be overcome entirely by lubricating the cartridges in some way. In the Schwarzlose machine gun there is a little pump installed in the mechanism which squirts a single drop of oil into the chamber each time the breech block goes back. In the Thompson Auto-rifle there are oil-soaked pads in the magazine which contains the cartridges. In the Pedersen semiautomatic rifle the lubrication is taken care of by coating the cartridges with a light film of wax.

Melvin Johnson knew too

Army Ordnance Oct 1936 What Price Automatic?, by Melvin M. Johnson, Jr.

Several methods have been devised to retard the unlocking of the block or bolt mechanically. The most appealing point in such a system is consolidation of the “automatic” parts in the breech. However, there is one serious difficulty. The conventional cartridge case does not lend itself to such a system unless adequate lubrication is provided, such as grease or wax or oil on the cases or in the chamber. Thus, the Schwarzlose machine gun has an automatic oil pump: the caliber 30 Thompson rifle (not the caliber 45 T.S.-M.G.) had oil pad in the magazine, and special “wax” was needed on the cases designed to be used in the Pedersen rifle.

There were several "standard" loads in the M1a when it ruled the firing line in NRA Highpower. The most common was 40.5 to 41.5 grs IMR 4895 with a 168 SMK. The second was 42.5 grs IMR 4064 with a 168 SMK. At the time the CCI #34's were not on the market, but in time, everyone heard about the slamfires and out of battery slamfires that Federal's caused, and the nickel plated WLR primer was considered the least sensitive primer, and that was commonly used. Now, the only real appropriate primer to use in a M1a or M1 is the CCI #34 because it is the least sensitive primer on the market. This is for those who may be looking to duplicate the match loads of the past in gas guns. Don't use sensitive primers, such as the brass colored WLR or Federals!
 
I’d be interested to hear what they respond with, but with regards to your primer pictures I don’t see anything wrong with them. I’m not sure there’s a place on this forum with what a truly flattened primer looks like, but essentially it’ll flow completely into the primer pocket even with head brass. You may even see a pierced primer or it’ll loosen entirely and fall out of the pocket. That’s the no go zone.
Your Hornady manual most likely lists loads for their bullet, not the Sierra. There may be small differences in the technology used and therefore could account for some of their differences in charges. It’s not unusual to see that, or COL differences accounting for it.
Did you first find out what Max and Working COL you need? Love the avatar….
 
You don't have a pressure issue. You have case to chamber adhesion creating the flat primers.

I assume you sized the case around 0.003" less than the chamber. That's what I do, full length resize, bump the shoulder 0.003" from chamber. On ignition, the primer backs out of the primer pocket and pushes the case forward. If the cases are clean, the chamber is clean, the front of the case adheres to the chamber. But the primer is still backed out. Then as pressures build, the case sidewalls stretch, the case head touched the bolt face, and the primer is stuffed into the pocket, and because it was stuffed into the pocket when pressures are around 27,000 psia (according to Prof Boatwright, that is when 243 case sidewalls stretch) the primer is quite flat. So you see that flat primer and think you have pressures problems. You do not.

I regularly lubricate my new cases on their first firing. On firing, the case slides to the bolt face, the case shoulders fold out to fill the chamber, the case is stress free and perfectly fireformed.

View attachment 1078878

View attachment 1078879

View attachment 1078880

And, primers are nice and round with below max loads. I in fact lube during load development, looking for the transition from rounded to flat. Which only tells me, I am above a maximum load, probably a grain above maximum load. I learned to lube my cases from a Distinguished HM gunsmith who took his cases all season in his M1a. The rule of thumb at the time was to shoot LC cases five times and toss them due to case head separations.

these FAL cases show the type of case head separations you get with dry cases in dry chambers. FAL's are brutal on cases. I recommend to FAL shooters, lube those cases!

View attachment 1078881

those other cases, I fired them in my M1a coated with Johnson paste wax. R stands for number of reloads, and if you notice, 23 reloads, 23 firings, no case head stretching, no internal ring, no sidewall stretch out of a M1a. Beat that. And, once I started lubing them, the primers went from flat to rounded. Obviously pressures had not changed within the case, so, something else was going on.

So, if the primers spook, take a tiny amount of case lube, and rub it on the case shoulders and neck. Or the whole case body. I have been using vasoline or hair gels, which are perfumed vasoline with thickeners. A thin amount is all you need. I used a lot of industrial greases and decided since fingers get in the mouth or eyes, I might as well use human rated greases. For match ammunition I spent the night before rubbing Johnson paste wax over the whole case, and then polishing the rapid fire rounds smooth. Slow fire, globs and swirls did not matter. But I had bolt over rides in cold weather during rapid fire stages with globby cases. Once I polished the case, no problemo what so ever. I shot out several M1a barrels and one M1 barrel with lubricated cases.

As a blast from the past, Pedersen used a ceresin wax mixture on his 276 Pedersen ammunition. The Pedersen rifle was a retarded blowback, and needed lubrication to function.

View attachment 1078882

Future General Hatcher well knew the need for lubricated cases, this is from 1933, and most of this is in his 1947 Hatcher's Notebook.

Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933

Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types, by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC.

Retarded Blow-back Mechanism………………………..

There is one queer thing, however, that is common to almost all blow-back and retarded blow-back guns, and that is that there is a tendency to rupture the cartridges unless they are lubricated. This is because the moment the explosion occurs the thin front end of the cartridge case swells up from the internal pressure and tightly grips the walls of the chamber. Cartridge cases are made with a strong solid brass head a thick wall near the rear end, but the wall tapers in thickness until the front end is quiet thin so that it will expand under pressure of the explosion and seal the chamber against the escape of gas to the rear. When the gun is fired the thin front section expands as intended and tightly grips the walls of the chamber, while the thick rear portion does not expand enough to produce serious friction. The same pressure that operates to expand the walls of the case laterally, also pushes back with the force of fifty thousand pounds to the square inch on the head of the cartridge, and the whole cartridge being made of elastic brass stretches to the rear and , in effect, give the breech block a sharp blow with starts it backward. The front end of the cartridge being tightly held by the friction against the walls of the chamber, and the rear end being free to move back in this manner under the internal pressure, either one of two things will happen. In the first case, the breech block and the head of the cartridge may continue to move back, tearing the cartridge in two and leaving the front end tightly stuck in the chamber; or, if the breech block is sufficiently retarded so that it does not allow a very violent backward motion, the result may simply be that the breech block moves back a short distance and the jerk of the extractor on the cartridge case stops it, and the gun will not operate.

However this difficultly can be overcome entirely by lubricating the cartridges in some way. In the Schwarzlose machine gun there is a little pump installed in the mechanism which squirts a single drop of oil into the chamber each time the breech block goes back. In the Thompson Auto-rifle there are oil-soaked pads in the magazine which contains the cartridges. In the Pedersen semiautomatic rifle the lubrication is taken care of by coating the cartridges with a light film of wax.

Melvin Johnson knew too

Army Ordnance Oct 1936 What Price Automatic?, by Melvin M. Johnson, Jr.

Several methods have been devised to retard the unlocking of the block or bolt mechanically. The most appealing point in such a system is consolidation of the “automatic” parts in the breech. However, there is one serious difficulty. The conventional cartridge case does not lend itself to such a system unless adequate lubrication is provided, such as grease or wax or oil on the cases or in the chamber. Thus, the Schwarzlose machine gun has an automatic oil pump: the caliber 30 Thompson rifle (not the caliber 45 T.S.-M.G.) had oil pad in the magazine, and special “wax” was needed on the cases designed to be used in the Pedersen rifle.

There were several "standard" loads in the M1a when it ruled the firing line in NRA Highpower. The most common was 40.5 to 41.5 grs IMR 4895 with a 168 SMK. The second was 42.5 grs IMR 4064 with a 168 SMK. At the time the CCI #34's were not on the market, but in time, everyone heard about the slamfires and out of battery slamfires that Federal's caused, and the nickel plated WLR primer was considered the least sensitive primer, and that was commonly used. Now, the only real appropriate primer to use in a M1a or M1 is the CCI #34 because it is the least sensitive primer on the market. This is for those who may be looking to duplicate the match loads of the past in gas guns. Don't use sensitive primers, such as the brass colored WLR or Federals!


Thank you, that's is some serious food for though, even with a bolt action and new brass.

------
I heard back from Hodgdon, not really a super answer, not bad either. I'm going to start over with the Hornady manual data. As I'm looking for a low recoil, accurate [moa or better] 100 to 200 yard loading. I know, I know....
------
Hodgdon's response:

''There are a couple of factors at play here. Different brands of casings have different internal capacities. Our data was tested in a Winchester case which typically has the most internal capacity. Hornady used their own casings which are typically a bit thicker. Our loads shown are compressed at the max and are at 105.4% case fill at the max load. Some companies choose not to publish compressed loads. Also our data shows the recorded results for that particular bullet. The Hornady manual lumps all of their different 165-168 bullets together, including a solid copper style bullet, which always produces much higher pressure and takes up more room in the case than a lead core jacketed bullet.



The published loads are accurate and are the direct results when that batch of components was tested. As always start low and work up as any substitutions can affect the data.''
 
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Thank you, that's is some serious food for though, even with a bolt action and new brass.

------
I heard back from Hornady, not really a super answer, not bad either. I'm going to start over with the Hornady manual data. As I'm looking for a low recoil, accurate [moa or better] 100 to 200 yard loading. I know, I know....
------
Hornady's response:

''There are a couple of factors at play here. Different brands of casings have different internal capacities. Our data was tested in a Winchester case which typically has the most internal capacity. Hornady used their own casings which are typically a bit thicker. Our loads shown are compressed at the max and are at 105.4% case fill at the max load. Some companies choose not to publish compressed loads. Also our data shows the recorded results for that particular bullet. The Hornady manual lumps all of their different 165-168 bullets together, including a solid copper style bullet, which always produces much higher pressure and takes up more room in the case than a lead core jacketed bullet.



The published loads are accurate and are the direct results when that batch of components was tested. As always start low and work up as any substitutions can affect the data.''

So, was that Hornady's response or Hodgdon's?

Actually, it's a pretty good response, to me. You're using a Sierra bullet, Starline brass, and Western powder, so I'm not sure where Hornady comes into the mix. I only reference Hornady data for Hornady cases or Hornady bullets, and mostly only when the two are paired; in most other combinations, they're my last source for a load. I may check Hornady if I am using an unknown bullet similar to a Hornady - like the "over-run" bullets from Midway where I'm pretty sure they're Hornady but repackaged - but other than that, their data is not that useful.
 
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So, was that Hornady's response or Hodgdon's?

Actually, it's a pretty good response, to me. You're using a Sierra bullet, Starline brass, and Western powder, so I'm not sure where Hornady comes into the mix. I only reference Hornady data for Hornady cases or Hornady bullets, and mostly only when the two are paired; in most other combinations, they're my last source for a load. I may check Hornady if I am using an unknown bullet similar to a Hornady - like the "over-run" bullets from Midway where I'm pretty sure they're Hornady but repackaged - but other than that, they're data is not that useful.

Hodgdon's. It is a good answer, just not what I was looking for.

So I'll ask Sierra.
 
There is no magic answer and you are subject to the process just like the rest of us. If you want low recoil use lead bullets and mag pistol powder or h4895 youth data.
 
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