Sniper Rifle Selection

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Gunmenhunter

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I get a lot of questions from folks these days about what rifle they should purchase, what caliber, gas or bolt etc. Here’s some things to chew on 1st:

1. Most Special Operations Force snipers these days can only guarantee a 1st round 100% hit rate (anytime, any weather, any place) out between 500-600 yards. There was a small test Joint Special Operations Command did years ago that confirmed this. Granted there are some very experienced SOF snipers out there that can pull this off further-
2. Since the guaranteed 1st round hit engagement distance is that close, a good semi-auto in 7.62mm would be more than acceptable.
3. For the rest of the article click here
 
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That would be using an M24, no? I have nothing better to do today, feel a little crappy, so I'll tell you a story. It'll be long, but informative. It is an overview of what I learned, experienced, and saw.

For the short version, here: get a NM legal AR, AR10, or M1A (or any other NM legal rifle) that you can use in matches, go to the matches and master them, then if you like, put a scope on it and now you have a semi sniper rifle. The guy behind it still won't be a sniper --but if he masters the NM course he may be a better shot than most snipers. Read on for why!

With the ballistics of the .308 and the variables that go into long range shooting, it gets more and more difficult to account for wind and such when you go beyond these ranges. Especially when they are blowing in different directions. It doesn't surprise me that this is the ONE HUNDRED percent number, in fact, it may seem kind of high if anything. Police snipers are, some anyway, are restricted to 100m or up to 300m shots. This may be why.

Personally, I've nailed a point target first hit using an M4. At those distances. Could I guarantee it everytime? No. With 2MOA on that particular rifle, I had no room for error, the shot had to be perfect --meaning I had to master all variables save the ones I couldn't. That means a good wind call, rather, a perfect wind call.

Now at the range, non-SF snipers can USUALLY pull this shot off with a cold barrel, and that is basically all we are talking about here. Take into consideration we've got a guy that hit a target WELL past 2000m. Wow. Just wow. But he had a ballistic computer, it isn't really cheating, it is that there is no way he could have mastered that shot without sitting down for an hour and working with the multivariable differential equations necessary to pull off that shot. That or practicing that shot a lot. Chances are low, had he gotten that much practice, he'd need a new barrel (this rifle was what, a Cheytac or BMG?).

For the avereage person without the training, it doesn't matter, they won't be pulling off these shots anyway. Best advice you can give them is to get a nice, cheap, but decent bolt gun, say an FN or a Remington (I had a .300winmag, PSS that I used in the army, and I sold it to an SF guy and he took it to Afghanistan with him). Slap a cheap SWFA 10x scope on and you are good to go (best cheap "sniper" scope there is, trust me here, knew a guy that took a Whitefeather M1A topped with this to Iraq, guess it worked well, he came back). Then go sign up at the range for highpower, NM, whatever you have the minimum gear to shoot. This is how to learn to shoot long range.

We found this out and exploited it. We made SDM's run the NM course before going to the ACOG, most of these guys couldn't shoot before coming here, though they were the best shots in all of the Stryker units (3 at the time). Calling shots, keeping a book, learning the positions, using a sling, on and on, all the NM stuff. We even gave them 60x Kowa spotting scopes on long stands and folding chairs, used a KD range, everything just like a real NM course. They got to wear special black shirts with a skull and crosshairs (or school insignia) and boonie hats with no armor or gear (except for the "tactical" portion of the class). This, like the blue cord the infantry gets, distinguishes them from the rest of the unit, at least while in training, and that difference and loosening of the rules significanly increased morale and made them very intersted and perceptive. It worked GREAT. Took all the hard work out of teaching them how to engage point targets at unknown distances later, and gave us a chance to teach them to spot, adjust for wind, and read mirage. Now we had a few snipers that helped us run this course, they were like teacher assistants so that every two, two man teams had one instructor. This actually made them better shots too --thought they knew all this stuff already and had shot this same range, the actual "game" of NM shooting is very helpful at making one a better shot. In fact, I'd say it should be implemented into basic training.

It really is that easy, easy enough to teach in basic, and they waste so much time doing what they do now --the time they spend farting around at the range in basic, they could just as easily use shooters to teach instead of drill sergeants, and just have them monitor for discipline. The shooting portion of basic is more lax than the rest anyway because they don't want to stress them while shooting. Our drill sergeant, for the whole time of the shooting part, kept score of every screw up and when those two or so weeks were over, we had to pay our debt. Something like 10,000 pushups and either one man could do it or the whole platoon --of course the whole platoon did it, with the guy that could do the most doing the most. It was one of the "unit cohesion" and commeraderie (sp?) things..

Now for Joe Blow, I don't know how he'll get the instruction. If he can buddy up or linger on a guy at a NM shoot, that is ideal. When he can outshoot him, he'll tell him to bugger off. But nothing, nothing, beats the instruction I got from guys that had been to SOTIC, SF sniper, Army sniper, Marine sniper, FOREIGN sniper schools, NM champs and more. I went there a pretty good shot, became a phenomenal shot, and was asked back as a resident instructor where I got even more training as well (best job I ever had, EVER!). Had I stayed in, I'd have gotten a SOTIC slot too, even though I wasn't SF, the brigade gets to send one or two of their best snipers to the school. That sucked, I even extended my ETS date but I couldn't get it out far enough to go (and they really needed to send someone that was getting ready to deploy with them anyway). Still, I wanted to go, who wouldn't? Anyway, everything that was learned by all of us instructors before, during, and after those courses was folded into this school, it was parts of sniper, SOTIC, NM game shooting, night shooting with the PEQ lasers, and of course, target engagement in urban terrain, a roughly 400m course which we made up (playing sniper running through a city, clearing buildings, taking roof shots, crawling through tunnels and grass and taking a shot, lots of really fun stuff). We put it all on a disc, wrote a manual, and submitted it to the army, TRADOC I think it was.

What happened was the Army DID in fact like the idea and made an SDM course. But they cut it down from one month (all day, Saturday too, and a few nights as well) to one week (!) and they heeded our demands for NM to be included, so the instructors now are actually picked from NRA or CMP NM badge holders, whatever they call the ones that win the matches. This shows you the army has no good shooters to really spare to run a school capable of teaching this kind of shooting (like I said, our snipers learned more stuff doing NM shooting with us, became better shooters). I suppose AMU could do it, but I don't see it happeing (they are the only ones I know of that actually do this kind of shooting regularly there). Anyway, they cut out the rest and now they just put ACOGs on an M4 and put 'em on that range for a week and show them fundamental NM shooting and call it good. No classroom time (on SO MUCH) no all day ranges for a month, no tactical applications (how to take the NM stuff and apply it on the battlefield) just so much was cut. The SDM's we turned out from '02-'04 were BAD. The course was also designed to teach these guys to go and teach this stuff to their squads --we chose guys with high rifle scores, but they had to have high GT scores too, 120? So an SDM today isn't the same thing as an SDM from '04. Sad, really sad. I actually signed up to be an instructor at Benning when I heard they were taking civilian instructors, but the program ended there --probably for the best.

Now you bring up the semi auto. I absolutely agree. That is what I "majored" in, using semi auto rifles AS sniper rifles. An SDM is like a squad level sniper that carries a rifle more suited to fighting rather than sniping --when I was in, they got M4's with an ACOG. We managed to get some with the SOPMOD kit, which had a thicker barrel, but they were basically just regular M4's with an ACOG and some used M16A2 lowers for a better stock. Pretty basic really, but the training is what made the difference, these weren't just guys with ACOGs they bought and took to Iraq, they were pretty confident in the fact that they could hit point targets to 600m (I know what the book says, and I don't care, the cutoff for accuracy in the army is 4MOA --we didn't use rifles that loose in our school, 2MOA was our cutoff). So again, I stress that shooting that far is the training and practice and not the weapon --to a point.

Now the whole time we argued that they needed to give us more powerful rifles. Even though these guys could hit targets at 600m, the bullet had no more umph when it got there (still supersonic, but so is a .22). I wouldn't try to stand up and catch one, but still. So we brought our own toys to the range regularly. The guy with the M1A, he recommended they open up those lockers FULL of M14's at Lewis. They refused. We begged for KAC SR25's, they refused. So a lot of guys, they bought their own uppers. Then Geissele came out with an auto match trigger, a Godsend. FINALLY, the units go flooded with money (you should have seen it, what a buying spree, all high end weapons gear, even manufacturers were sending us free stuff so we'd buy it for the unit --got lots of free stuff this way, all I had to do was write and ask for it!). When every other thing was paid for, the got SDM's some new rifles last, but not all of them. What they got was unit dependent, how much they were willing to spend. Some did get the SR25's, a lot got the M14, some got other stuff --I even saw a picture of one guy in Afghanistan carrying a rifle I had NO IDEA what it was. All I could tell was he was definitely an SDM by the look of the weapon (he wasn't SF, he was infantry, leg).

Now, factor in the NM shooting as being the BEST way to learn to shoot at distance, the fact an accurate semi auto is good to the range you describe, and that semi autos are just more fun (come one, you know they are!) and you come to the realization that the best choice would be a NM legal rifle. An AR, OR an Armalite AR10, they make a NM version that is all "tactical" too, so you get a NM legal rifle in .308 that is fine enough to deploy with. I'd take one anyway. But you can do the same stuff with an M4, I have today a near duplicate of my M4 from the army with a couple of minor changes. I also have Zeus' lighting bolt, a 6.5 Grendel, Satern barreled, custom built by me AR. THIS is what I believed they should have been issued, but the round was problematic, especially with the patent Mr. Alexander's investors were flying around. No way the Army will adopt something like that. But that Grendel, it is the perfect 1000m and less AR calibre. I LOVE it. Sub-MOA, I haven't stretched its legs yet, but at 200m I can nail a 12" hanging plate and keep it swinging almost as fast as I can pull the trigger. Yeah, I had spectators that day, and the range bent the rules so I can rapid fire on the ranges now.

So yeah, for a civilian, a NM legal AR in 5.56 or .308 or an M1A (or whatever else they allow that the user wants most) is great. Learn the course, master the course, and you'll be a better shot than half the snipers in the Army, maybe more. The rifle you selected, any of the NM legal rifles, are suitable to be called a "sniper rifle" and some are "tactical" like the Armalite. I'm not sure if my Grendel is yet, I haven't shot civilian NM matches yet, not real matches anyway. But you can take the Armalite, put the carry handle on it and have the match rifle, or throw an ACOG on it, a bipod, gangster grip and flashlight, and you have an SDM rifle. Throw a 10x scope on it and just the bipod, presto, a sniper rifle. WHAT the rifle is, in some cases, has to do with the gear you put on it for the situation, the "tactical" stuff.

When I do shoot the matches this summer, if my Grendel or M4 isn't legal, I'll probably go with the Armalite NM AR10 --or build one, whatever is the best deal. If I can build one with a cut rifle barrel for a similar cost, I will. That singular item in an AR design is the most important of all. You want sub-MOA accuracy in an AR? Guaranteed? You want a quality cut rifle barrel if you can, but there are good button barrels (fine ones) too. I only say this because I own one cut rifle barrel and it is the most accurate AR I've ever seen, but the calibre doesn't hurt.

Finally, I'll add this. There is a guy at another forum, a long range shooting forum, that read some other thread about some guy saying that theoretically you could shoot a 5.56 to a mile --and accurately hit a point target. Everyone called BS and laughed the guy away. So this other guy, instead of arguing the point, goes and gets a cheap Savage and does some very simple mods to it to accurize it, and puts a fairly inexpensive scope on it --the most obscure modification was HIGHLY angled scope base. Like big tires in the back, little tires in the front souped up! He said he wanted to prove that this could be done AND with a weapon cheap enough that anyone who wanted to try it could. He taped the whole thing because he knew he'd be doubted. Ultimately, he could a barrel size target most of the time if I recall right. You can look it up --lots of good info on that site too, most of the guy on there were or are snipers and the tempo of discussion is much higher grade than it is here. You should check out that site, maybe ask a question or two over there and see what those guys say. You'll have to search for it, maybe "long range shooting forum .223 mile shot" or something like that.

Good luck. I'm gonna wander off now.
 
You find me a reliable semi auto in 6.5x55 that can be a sniper platform and ill go semi until then ill stick with a bolt gun. But nice article good food for thought.
My 6.5 Grendel is superbly accurate and extremely reliable; it also excellent for up to 1000m and much lighter than any 6.5x55. It's all in the build, the parts. But Armalite makes a 6.5x55 --or is that DPMS? If that is the case, I would wait. Now if you got an Armalite or whatever, a Noveske maybe, then swap whatever barrel with a fine cut rifle barrel, would you not have both accuracy and reliability?

BTW, for reliability in an AR, NOTHING beats that JP Ent. "tactical" bolt carrier. That thing is slick, tight tolerance, and moves in the receiver like is on ball bearings. And think about it: for reliability, it is all in the moving parts, right? Well, that is the main moving part that holds all the other moving parts (trigger, hammer, springs isn't considered moving) so fix that and you are good to go.

With the DPMS I had back in the school, the first LRR they made, I was sorely disappointed. 1MOA at BEST, with a 24" FF stainless bull barrel!? I got rid of it quick. Reliabilty was so-so, or so, so bad rather. I wouldn't get another, when I get an AR10 platform it will be Armalite, Noveske, maybe an LMT, or I'll build it myself, but it will have to be NM legal too.

Yeah, if you build it yourself you can get a very fine AR in just about any calibre there is (no joke, you really can now, I think one guy make a .450 Marlin AR10?) from .17 to .50. Only the Contender can do that!
 
For the average person without the training, it doesn't matter, they won't be pulling off these shots anyway. Best advice you can give them is to get a nice, cheap, but decent bolt gun, say an FN or a Remington (I had a .300winmag, PSS that I used in the army, and I sold it to an SF guy and he took it to Afghanistan with him). Slap a cheap SWFA 10x scope on and you are good to go (best cheap "sniper" scope there is, trust me here, knew a guy that took a Whitefeather M1A topped with this to Iraq, guess it worked well, he came back). Then go sign up at the range for highpower, NM, whatever you have the minimum gear to shoot. This is how to learn to shoot long range.

They let you guys use privately-purchased weapons?! :confused: I thought that had been verboten for three decades.
 
Strykervet - Great info! Wish there were more educated & experienced guys like you at my local range
Semper Fi
 
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Guys this was NOT a military operation, just a private gathering of SF guys on a perfect weekend.
 
Its a good point that for <600m 7.62 NATO is a pretty practical caliber. ... certainly its still well above supersonic at those ranges... so is a 5.56 out of a 20" barrel for that matter.

Yet, a more specialized long range caliber with better exterior ballistics should still extend that range (somewhat), and long range 308 terminal ballistics could still be improved, so I think there is still role for other calibers.
 
I think. There's a reason the CIA used s built 7mag andalot go to the 300 mag. But if given a max 500yard shot im sure a 308 is plenty capable. I love mine and shoot it to 800 and will do now regularly. As always you'll find abetted for purpose/circumstance gun. Id prefer a bolt with m4 sidekick. That's me and I have all three. A Remington 700 custom built 7 rem mag, a custom built Mauser 308 ands m4. Wouldnt have it any other way. That's what a spotter is for, to carry your extra gun and gear LOL
 
I'd be willing to bet 99.999% of the folks on here aren't, never were and never will be a sniper. So what is the point?
 
Yeah, but the guy said he used a Remington PSS in .300Win Mag in the Army, and implied that the SF guy would be using it as a service weapon as well. Nothing about sheep hunting. Sorry, but you don't buy a rifle at the store and use it in the armed forces.

Don
 
They let you guys use privately-purchased weapons?! :confused: I thought that had been verboten for three decades.
Yes and no. Short answer no. You had to have CO permission to take a pistol, and it had to be a NATO round (they said .45 would be okay, it ended up being 9mm only). Not many people did it either because of the guys wanting to take .44's, they ruined it. Infantrymen are all different types, from highly skilled and intelligent, to dumber than a rock. I wasn't SF either, but I worked close to them, mostly their gunsmith. I was an SDM instructor at the Stryker Brigade Advanced (Infantry) Skills Center. You can look up info on it here: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA512136 but it doesn't really say much. Scroll down to section 09, the sbct. "Developing Agile Adaptive Soldiers". You can get the idea that we were trying out new ideas and you may find the article informing. The article is by my former bosses, Col. Brown, CSM Dedrich, the only guys this school answered to.

This is where I saw an E7 (the chief) cuss out an O3 too. He did half of it standing at attention. He got promoted two months later to E8, and I bet you don't see much of this in the real Army either and it is most certainly against regs. SHE came to an infantry school and told us we had to teach her POG unit how to use M4's. She wanted us to cancel a scheduled course to do this. The chief handled it wrong, but he didn't take crap from nobody and working at that school didn't exactly make you a "by the book soldier". Quite the opposite. I felt like "The Dirty Dozen" the whole time I was there. We had our own uniform and, well, got away with murder. I told you it was the perfect job. Anyway, that article refers to the school as "SBASC" and is in context to a larger picture of the Bde. and shooting was only part of what we did. In addition to this, we "hosted" a sniper course (the real deal, how many of those are done at Ft. Lewis? War creates special situations I guess) Barrett sent one of their guys to give a class on the XM107 (where we smoked an armor plate with Raufoss ammo) and I gave demos to the US War College. I still have the coin.

As for rifles, you weren't SUPPOSED to mod them, but they didn't say anything either. It kind of all started when we got a new 1SG that was a ranger hero. They let him get away with murder because he was supposed to turn the unit into a killing machine. He was pretty bad@ss, short as a smurf, but hardcore. I was 6'2" 220 and I wouldn't mess with his 4'10" (maybe with boots) 130lb (wet?) frame. Anyway, we got him because of this and when he got to that unit, he took shooting very seriously. On day one, he did an informal QA with the company. Some answers were: worked on Lynch mission, Army, SF, SEAL?, Marine and foreign sniper schools, 40 something confirmed kills. I'll never forget that answer, this unit had never deployed and CIB's were rare in the Army then.

Also, in the beginning like I said, SDM's did not get SDM rifles, they got a bipod, an ACOG, and an old cotton Garand sling. So concessions were made for this in particular. At the school, we (the instructors, not the students, although once or twice a student brought a toy in) regularly brought our own gear. Some was for formal and informal testing, some just for fun.

I have all of the SDM course on a disc, it has pictures of us playing with some of this I think, but I can't put it on here, sorry. Wife is home, time for dinner, take care!
 
Yeah, but the guy said he used a Remington PSS in .300Win Mag in the Army, and implied that the SF guy would be using it as a service weapon as well. Nothing about sheep hunting. Sorry, but you don't buy a rifle at the store and use it in the armed forces.

Don
Call me a liar outright or jog on. I have pictures but the only ones are not decent to put on here. Like I said, it isn't common and I do not doubt for one instance your service was different. It was like that for me too until I moved on to the school. I don't doubt it like that right now. But right after 9/11 things changed, the gloves came off, and we just didn't have the gear we needed. We had 80's flak jackets and LBE's FFS. We got decent armor before the unit deployed, but by that time a lot of guys bought their own. Uppers for rifles were just another thing we had to buy if we wanted it.

The .300? Yeah, that was odd, but so was having Sniper School ran at Ft. Lewis. It did make it easier though. And when I say "used" I only mean for the course. They only had so many M24's, sorry for the miscommunication.

The Whitefeather, that went over and came back. Not in the same shape either.
 
You cannot take your POW to a war zone. Period. Does it happen..??? sometimes it does, but you take it at your peril. Some commanders will fry you and a few may look the other way. But...it is still against the law and regulations. SF has NO special authorization to take "what they want" to a war zone. - and YES, I know this for a fact. The rules apply against SF as they do against all other units/branches/etc. SF may get some authorizations to do some T&E for some previously authorized systems, but they cannot take "what they want' to battle. That is one of the myths outsiders propogate.

Do some guys do it? Again, yes. But....you're gambling with your career if you do so. I've been doing this for a lot of years and have 7 rotations downrange and know NO ONE who has taken a POW to the war. However, I didn't say it didn't happen. Jim
 
I'm not going to follow the offsite link. If you want to discuss what you wrote paste the whole thing here.

But I will take issue with the part you posted. 308 is used by the military for only one reason and that is logistics. There is nothing about that caliber that gives you an advantage over 6.5 or 7mm.

Your logic is also faulty. It is the crappy performance of that caliber that limits the range. If you change calibers you extend your range. That seems pretty simple. You can make a case that starting with a 308 is useful because it forces you to learn to read wind but think about that statement for a while.

There is a reason sniper and practical matches are almost never won by 308 shooters.

Edit: sorry if that came across as snippy... After rereading the op I realize he wasn't saying 308 was the recommendation just that it is adequate which is certainly true
 
You cannot take your POW to a war zone. Period. Does it happen..??? sometimes it does, but you take it at your peril. Some commanders will fry you and a few may look the other way. But...it is still against the law and regulations. SF has NO special authorization to take "what they want" to a war zone. - and YES, I know this for a fact. The rules apply against SF as they do against all other units/branches/etc. SF may get some authorizations to do some T&E for some previously authorized systems, but they cannot take "what they want' to battle. That is one of the myths outsiders propogate.

Do some guys do it? Again, yes. But....you're gambling with your career if you do so. I've been doing this for a lot of years and have 7 rotations downrange and know NO ONE who has taken a POW to the war. However, I didn't say it didn't happen. Jim
Yeah, I didn't claim to know WHAT they do or don't, and I wasn't SF, get that crystal. I wanted to and should have, but put it off based on what others said and then I got messed up and that was that. I worked with some guys that were, had friends that did go (one guy went (3?) times before he got it) and worked with their gunsmith, who was a good friend of one of the other instructors.

Taking a POW WITHOUT the permission? Hell no! Nobody did that, I never said they did. And the stuff had to be signed into the arms room, it was treated like mil property until they got back. Not the stuff I took to school though for giggles, I took EVERY weapon I owned at that time to work ALL THE TIME. At the school. It should also be pertinent to note that when a weapon was sent in to bde. to be worked on, it had to be restored to the military configuration. No exception. We also were supposed to kind of keep it hush at the time so as not to attract attention from outside the co., but especially outside the bde. To highlight this, I wore my school uniform to the PX to get something real quick, and some general I guess saw me and complained and the bde. commander told him he'd hold us accountable and what he did was tell us to be more careful and to change back into uniform before going outside our ranges or compound. So looking the other way and bending the rules for extraordinary conditions is different than saying "this is how it is there".

You know, I could have just said "6.5 is better than .308" and been done with it, but I figured having context behind it to understand that the opinion is backed by experience would be more ideal. I also tend to write fast and easy and am disabled now with nothing else to do much of the time, so I do tend to write stories instead of just a single line.

I found the topic interesting and thought I had something to add. I figured I had some experience in the area, given my military service and my knowledge of math and physics (which I studied afterwards, and truth be told university math is harder than anything I did in service --but I chose it for the challenge for the same reason I picked infantry).

Finally JimP, I have no way of knowing you were 18B and there is no way you can satisfactorily prove that online either. A lot of guys say they were SF. I just have to give you credit. I'm sure you have some amazing stories that would be hard to believe too. I'm also sure you've done stuff outside the AR.

If you need proof for everything, every single detail, then perhaps the internet isn't for you. Philosophically you should question everything, but go too far and you'll end up inventing the wheel for everything you do or believe. Some things need to be taken with a grain of salt, some with a teaspoon, but to not extend me the same benefit of the doubt you'd want about your service is unfair and, well, kind of childish. I mean, come on, you want us to just believe you were 18B? I've talked to more SF operators in my life than any other MOS! But I extend the benefit of the doubt in absence of proof and for causes not vital to health or safety.

Now I'm not wasting anymore time with disambiguation or defending myself against charges I can't prove one way or another online. It is derailing this guy's thread and not fair to him.
 
I'm not going to follow the offsite link. If you want to discuss what you wrote paste the whole thing here.

But I will take issue with the part you posted. 308 is used by the military for only one reason and that is logistics. There is nothing about that caliber that gives you an advantage over 6.5 or 7mm.

Your logic is also faulty. It is the crappy performance of that caliber that limits the range. If you change calibers you extend your range. That seems pretty simple. You can make a case that starting with a 308 is useful because it forces you to learn to read wind but think about that statement for a while.

There is a reason sniper and practical matches are almost never won by 308 shooters.

Edit: sorry if that came across as snippy... After rereading the op I realize he wasn't saying 308 was the recommendation just that it is adequate which is certainly true
What, for the .mil journal? I don't care. It doesn't have much to do with shooting exactly, more about military tactics and such. It highlights the difference between "old army" and the transformation to Stryker units, the reason I put it up. It is a good read for those interested in modern military operations. The journal is like "Scientific American" for combat arms.

Are you confusing "logic" with "logistics"? Logic has to do with rational thought and logistics has to do with an efficient supply chain (which is logically organized I suppose). I guess I read your post and am confused what you are getting at. From the looks of it, I agree with you.

.308 IS USED primarily because of logistics. I'd never say it is better than 6.5 and if I did that is a typo. It is just cheaper and easier to use two small arms calibres instead of a bunch. .308, btw, was chosen by NATO if I recall right and they wanted everyone to go FAL, but US went M14 but they agreed on the calibre. Am I wrong here? Now that we do have better rounds, we still use it because of convention and logistics, same as .223.

.308 is like any other round and if you up the weight and BC, you can get a better bullet than the 6.5. It'll just be reeeeally long. The 6.5, it looks pretty long if you notice compared to .308 (I load 'em both) similar weight or not. I fully agree the 6.5 is a better long range bullet, isn't it the best until you get up to .338? I don't know without pulling out the charts, I'm sure there are some obscure calibres that are. 6.5 I guess is obscure, but I load it so it isn't around here!

I suppose .308 is good for teaching wind. The .223 I think is better, for one reason: at long ranges, it starts losing speed and you get a strong wind effect downrange. It is quite noticeable, especially using the 55gr. bullets. .308 isn't so bad. But any of them are good for it, they are all subject to the same laws and that isn't up for discussion --for the same reason perpetual energy isn't, but I can't convince my buddy of that one either. Some are just affected more than others, but the curved path they take to the target are modeled using the same functions.

I understand .308 is losing out on matches these days. Where the M14 was ruling the roost, the high bc .223 bullets from AR's are surpassing them. I read that in an article somewhere. It makes sense. I've been pleased with the 75gr. Hornady T1's myself.

I still strongly stand by the recommendation to get a NM legal rifle or one legal for local long range matches in you area. This is where you will get the best long range shooting experience. If you can get away with 6.5 do it, but you'll need to reload unless you have deep pockets (you should really reload anyway if you want performance tuned to your rifle). I can shoot some long range matches here using my Grendel and ACOG, but for others I have to have a rifle in original military configuration. So it depends --if you can only shoot these matches with .223 or .308, then in that case, yeah, they are both better than 6.5 or even .338 for that matter. If you can't use it to learn, it won't do you any good.

I need to get a CMP legal rifle. Or at least build an upper. But I'll be doing it competitively and not to learn exactly (although it is always a learning experience shooting with others).

Just for sheer performance, the 6.5 is better to 1000m than any other caliber I've used. When I built my Grendel, I built it with very few expenses spared (although I did build it for a good price, I got good deals on the gear I did use for the most part). I built it with all the experience I had in mind, and I selected the 6.5G because it has the best performance of just about any other AR calibre. It has more power than a .223, but also more range, less drift, higher bc, and for lighter 6.5's, the 100gr. AMAX in particular (which isn't all that high in bc exactly) it is just as fast as the heavier .223's. I built it to be the "perfect" SDM rifle in my mind, and to me it is --it is as light as a regular AR but has bigger rifle performance. I don't really NEED an SDM rifle anymore, but like I said, I got the bug. I turned an FAL into an SDM rifle that is pretty spot on too, it can do 1-1.5MOA on a good day but I still get fliers that I just can't fix without spending a lot on it; I highly recommend NOT doing this, it just isn't worth it, the FAL is a poor choice for that. It was a challenge, and the end results really weren't worth it, but I couldn't handle having an FAL in there that wasn't accurized and I do like it now.

I really would like a .338Lapmag, but at the moment I haven't found anywhere to shoot it. Most times the 6.5 is like having a Viper on residential streets only.

I also am discussing "sniper rifle" in the light of shooting and not fieldcraft. When you factor that in, which is MUCH more important in sniping, to a sniper, it may affect your gear. But ultimately, an accurate rifle in the hands of a shooter with that training in effect becomes a sniper rifle.

I prefer a good barrel, I can't stress that enough, sort of heavy profile but not too heavy and I like cut rifling. I like it FF too. I suppose I go for reliability first, then accuracy. Like another fellow on here said, it is easier to take a reliable weapon and make it more accurate than it is to take an accurate rifle an make it reliable. I suppose it goes both ways too, but it makes sense in general --the old "you can't fix junk" adage.

I suppose optics should be mentioned, they are really MORE important than the rifle is. I guess, come to think of it, the actual rifle is kind of at the bottom of the list. If you look back, the military just used accurate rifles, mostly hunting rifles, throughout history. It was the scope that made it a sniper rifle, and to some point it still is today. I mention the SWFA "Super Sniper" scope as being a good cheap choice. I feel it is worth mentioning since most folks on here won't be sniping for real and dropping $1000+ on a good scope is out of the question. But you don't want junk. That is one cheap scope I'll stand behind though, the only one really. I've seen it work for real and I've seen a very smart and skilled shooter take it to Iraq. The main complaint I've heard from other snipers and marksmen is that it has fat mil dots compared to nicer ones, but I've never noticed it being too problematic. Other complaints seem to be individual, not endemic. Things about the knobs and stuff. If you can afford it though, the best you can buy is a good choice and fixed 10x isn't a bad recommendations either. One of the biggest mistakes folks make when building a civlian sniper style rifle is that they put the Hubble on it.
 
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