Sniper round,Mauser vs Mosin Nagant

[Tropical Z]

Comparing mostly the round,as there could be too many differences between any two of these rifles.From a trajectory standpoint and downrange energy (say 300-1000 yards)how similar are 7.62x54R and 8mm Mauser?
And if you took into account a fine shooting example of a 91/30 and K98 what could the expected outcome be?

 

[jefnvk]

And if you took into account a fine shooting example of a 91/30 and K98 what could the expected outcome be?

A dead soldier.

I believe 8MM carries a bit more energy downrange, but not sure.

 

[Eightball]

A good comparison: watch "Enemy at the Gates". Equal guns, IMHO--I think it more depends on training, and the optics used to get those distances. Personally, I'd take the MN 91/30 (since hindsight is 20/20 )--older, cooler looking weapon, especially with that scope. And, have you ever seen the "ghillie suit" (sp?) rigs at gun shows for MN's? Sweet stuff .

 

[TODD3465]

Mauser, mauser, mauser.........

Much better optics, IMHO.

 

[GD]

difference

The difference between a similar weight 7.62x54 round fired from a M91/30 and a 8mm round fired from a K98k rifle would be negligible. In either case, a well placed shot would result in jefnvk's response - a dead soldier.

 

[Davo]

Tropicalz, from what Ive read, the finnish mosins will outshoot decent mausers, and cost is about the same. The 8mm is slightly more powerful, but not much. Both rounds are plenty deadly at 300-1000 yards, though they are not as accurate as say a 308 or 300.
If you are looking for a great long range surplus rifle, you should check out the swiss k31. This rifle was basically made for long range shooting. They are very accurate, and the projectile fired is very slick. Ammo will cost more, but you can pretty much expect a sub 2moa rifle, with many doing 1moa. And with a scope, shooting well should be even easier.

 

[cracked butt]

Both rounds are plenty deadly at 300-1000 yards, though they are not as accurate as say a 308 or 300.

Both rounds are potentially as accurate as the .308 and .300WM, especially the 7.62x39. Edit:OOps, I meant 7.62x54R

The reason why you don't see the potential very often is that they are not common In north america- I.E noone builds rifles domestically in these chamberings, most of the ammunition fired is surplus, which is "good enough" for infantry but is not match grade, and vast majority of the rifles importd have a wide variation of groove diameters- pretty much always oversized for the bullet.

The opposite is also true. Cartridges like the 6.5x55 and 7.5 swiss have a reputation for excellent accuracy, probably more due to the far higher quality of rifle and higher quality of surplus ammo than anything else.

 

[Davo]

hmm, well...

Since hes asking about the 7.62 x 54r (not x39 though my point still stands) and the 8mm, and fine shooting examples of a 91/30 and K98, im gonna guess he is looking to purchase a milsurp. Your right-out of certain rifles, many of which are commercial, these rounds may be very accurate. But in general (and hes a newb so lets not confuse things with exceptions), these milsurp cartridges are less accurate than the .308 or .300-and hitting a target at that range will be tough.
Im sure there is someone, somewhere with a 7.62x54r or 8mm that will outshoot the .308 and .300. In general they are in different classes-one due to a very efficient case design, the other due to its improved ballistics.
That said, id still love one of the cz bolt action carbines in 7.62x39. I hear the full potential of that combination is awesome.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, the 8x57JS and 7.62x54R are inherently as accurate or more accurate than the .308. The 57JS went out of favor after WWII in military circles, but it certainly did extremely well prior to that. And since it and its sister the 7x57 are the grandparents to the .308 and have the same basic design, there's little difference in ballistic potential. The 54R (and esp. the Finnish .308" 53R) is one of the most potentially accurate cartridges ever invented. The Lapua reloading manual cites the trophies taken home with the round, and notes certain features of the cartridge that give it great potential stability. Out of an accurized Finnish Mosin, esp. a 28/30, M-30 or M-39, it can be exceptionally accurate.

The K-31 is also very accurate, but the very best long-range C&R I ever owned was a Swiss 96/11, a true Schmidt-Rubin. It would give sub-MOA groups and did extremely well at 300 and 400 meters.

As far as a contest between say a fine Czech Mauser and a Finnish Mosin, the Finn would likely have the advantage because it has already been customized and accurized with shims and sometimes even bedding and a barrel sleeve.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

From what I have read, most of the "sniping" that occurred at Leningrad took place at less than 100 yards. So I don't think the rifle, or optics would make much difference at short ranges like that.

 

[jefnvk]

Just t throw out more options, if you are looking for a sniper rifle, there are still some Swede snipers floating around. Just as accurate as any Swiss or Finn gun, and the 6.5x55 is an awesome cartridge, my favorite.

 

[Davo]

Cosmo, its funny you mention the 8mm as being at least as accurate as the .308. Over the years it was found that the 30-06 (a long action cartridge) just plain couldnt shoot as well as the .308, all other things being equal. It was found that the shorter .308 case was more effiecient in burning powder, and more consistant. This pretty much ended the 30-06 being used as a competitive long range cartridge. The 8mm is actually the inspiration for the 30-06, again a long action cartridge with the problems that come with it. Are these cartridges accurate? Sure. Are they as accurate as the .308 in general? I dont think so.
I too have read of the 54r's achievments, but in general its not used as a long range round except in the few countries where its still in use. This is one of those exceptions that may be very accurate in a few rifles, but again this may confuse newbies.

 

[cracked butt]

Over the years it was found that the 30-06 (a long action cartridge) just plain couldnt shoot as well as the .308, all other things being equal.

That's true in gas operated semiautos. You would have to expend some serious $$ in a bolt rifle before the difference between a .308 and 30-06 becomes apparant.

 

[Eightball]

Over the years it was found that the 30-06 (a long action cartridge) just plain couldnt shoot as well as the .308, all other things being equal.

Finally, someone else comes to the same conclusion . Though, cracked butt is right--the difference would be negated in a bolt gun; so, go for the cheaper round

 

[Cosmoline]

The 8x57JS is actually closer to the .308 in dimension than the .30'06. The .308 is only a few mm's shorter and has the same head diameter. The .308 isn't much of an innovation. It's just a shrunk down .30'06, which in turn is just an elongated 7x57. So it basically just returns to the 1890's.

Part of the .308's advantage is that all the rifles chambered for it are post-war. The 8x57, 7x57, .30'06, 7.62x54R etc. have at least 100 years of rifles floating around from different nations. They all tend to have slightly different tolerances, dimensions, rifling twist rates, troat dimensions, ogive tolerances, material quality, etc. THe 7x57 is notoriously difficult to deal with not because of any defect in the cartridge but because there are variances from the old Mausers to the new Rugers and back again. What combinations shoot well in one rifle might not stabilize in another. The 54R is mired by variances between .308" and .311" or wider bores. But there's nothing magical about one cartridge or another as an inherent matter. If you start from scratch and can design the rifle from the ground up, any of these classics can be turned into absolute tack drivers. Heck even the .30-30 can be, as witnessed by some of the custom T/C hand and a half guns out there.

 

[Gewehr98]

Cosmo hit the nail on the head.

Start with match-grade chamber reamers, a decent-quality barrel, and properly assembled ammo, and I'd wager one would be hard-pressed to find any difference in so-called accuracy between a .30-06 and .308 Winchester.

I've seen the "inherent" accuracy argument go right out the door when benchresters or accuracy buffs adopt a cartridge that isn't mainstream. Tweak a .30-30 Remington Model 788 and you'll get a real eye-opener, guaranteed!

I had a friend in Sacramento who shot matches with a bull-barreled 8mm Mauser target conversion. Of course, it had a Canjar trigger and Unertl optics, but his 8x57JS 198gr match loads in that rifle were something to behold when the scores came back from the pits.

 

[赤悪魔]

7.62 x 54r I like this round over the 8mm. I think I can get more out of the 7.62 x 54r. The 8mm seems to have a little more drop down range

WSNFL

 

[USSR]

Actually, the 8x57JS and 7.62x54R are inherently as accurate or more accurate than the .308.

Actually, cartridges in and of themselves are not "inherently accurate". Certain cartridges have a "reputation for accuracy" due to the fact that many well-made rifles were chambered for that cartridge, and quality ammo was made for that cartridge.

Don

 

[dfaugh]

My .02

What no one has seemed to mention is the ammo you're talking about. Both cartridges can be very accurate, as can the more common chamberings they're available in. However, I've yet to see any milsurp ammo that came close to the accuracy of good commercial and especially handloads in any of my Mosins or Mausers. The best milsurp ammo I've see was Czech "Silvertip" in 7.62x54R...Have yet to find any 8mm that would shoot better than 3" groups. But in the same gun (Scoped and bedded/restocked Mauser, but unmodified action w/ military barrel) I've shot 1 1/4" groups with commercial ammo, and right around 1" with handloads, whichisn't all that much different from an OK commercial rifle off the shelf. still playing with it trying to get it better. And A guy I meet up with, often, at the range, has an original Finnish sniper that shoots 3/4" groups all day long often better, but again this is with commercial ammo.

In short, IMHO, 8x57, 7.62x54R, 30-06, 308 (and a host of similar cartridges) all have a relatively similar accuracy potential. If you could eliminate ALL the variables, I doubt you'd find much difference in accuracy, beteen any of them.

 

[Apache]

It depends on the shooter!

I'd post that the 7.62-54r round is the better. Again it depends on the shooter and the rifle. My late Finnish mother owned a mdl.91 longer than her
height.She was a guerrilla in the war with the Stalin soviet invation of FINNLAND. She could see what was happening to the Ukraine,by Stalins' leadership. Fake famines,murders, explosions,and vowed never to let that happen in Finland. It would be an understatement, that she hated all governments. It's no accident that the Finnish rifles were the widow makers
of WWII. They were refitted by either Finnland concerns like Tikka or shipped to Germany for headspace,new barrels,etc. She told me to save my money when I was going to send her rifle to the gunsmith for a scope. "I'm completely satisfied with it, so forget that plan!" I've two Finn rifles from that
era. one's a Tikka,the other a dragoon. Not necessarily for sale, but if I can manage to post pictures-they'll make a good reference!

 

[Commissar Gribb]

i'm no expert on ammo but...

methinks that in a day and age where x 54R is only really used in machine guns (ala the PKM etc.) that it would be difficult to find ammunition for it that is designed for precision shooting.

It would be interesting to see how much you could improve the round with boat tails and reloads (assuming you find some reloadable ammo for x 54R)

 

[Cosmoline]

Apache--your mother was a member of the Lotta Savard?! What ever became of her M-91? Are you sure it wasn't an M-24 "lotta" rifle? Some of those had new German and Swiss barrels put on. They're extremely valuable. Please post photos if you've got them.

 

[db_tanker]

Commissar,

I would love to answer you...but I have been too lazy to do anything with my stuff...My Finn M-39 Sako hasn't seen daylight in more than a few moons.

But my plan is to take it, and use the same batch of brass, primer and bullet...then use 5 diffrent powders...3 ball and 2 stick.

Did the same with my custom 98/22 308 and found her sweet spot.

Right now, in Texas, its just too friggin' hot to sit out there and work those rounds...and when your throwing powder, you don't really want a fan going.


But I DO know that with S&B factory loads, 6" gongs at 150-200 yards don't stand still...same even with Wolf. I stay away from surplus due to it being corrosive for the most part.

 

[Mike Hull]

Apache--your mother was a member of the Lotta Savard?! What ever became of her M-91? Are you sure it wasn't an M-24 "lotta" rifle? Some of those had new German and Swiss barrels put on. They're extremely valuable. Please post photos if you've got them.

Yes, Apache, very interesting bit of family history. Thanks!

 

[Dr.Rob]

As far as the RIFLES go, the Mauser bolt is a LOT faster than the Mosin.

Scopes of that era are primitive by today's standards but they certainly worked.

During WW2 there was no such thing as "match grade" 7.62x54R... nor was specialty ammo set aside for most 'snipers' on either side.

Both cartidges are well suited to shooting long range. if you could roll your own with a custom rifle in each caliber (diffcult with the Russian stuff as I don't think I ever SEEN a brass 7.62x54R round) you'd no doubt have two very well matched calibers.