Snub Relevance?

[trackskippy]

"Shoot it a lot" is the mantra for anything you carry.

Its not that the snubbies are inaccurate, they really arent, if you're up to shooting them. They can be a challenge to shoot, especially if you're unfamiliar with them.

The "Airweights" especially are not all that pleasant to shoot and require a bit more from you, and tend to discourage the regular practice you need to be good with them. They certainly are not beginner guns.

Low capacity is just what it is. What else are they? You basically have 5-6 rounds, maybe a few more, depending on the gun, but the higher the capacity, the larger the guns tend to be too.

I have 5 round J frame Airweights up to 7 shot L frame snubbies. The Airweights are brutal if you're putting in the time with full power ammo. The larger, heavier guns are actually very pleasant, and good shooters too.

But at that point, I really don't see the point, as I can carry things that are similar in size, that carry a good bit more ammo, that are usually easier and quicker to get into action from how Im carrying them, and are easier to shoot as well.

It all comes down to being realistic in your choices, based on some kind of more realistic experience with them, putting the time in getting and staying good with them, and then, "Shoot it a lot", and repeat.

 

[Risky buisness]

Plainly put, the debate should be centered around several other thought processes rather than snub vs auto loader.
MINDSET, TRAINING, TACTICS, gear, in that order note I represent the final one, gear, as a lower case subject, as in my perception it actually is. A committed person with the 3 former listed items has a greater potential to succed and survive something regardless of the choice of ' gear'.
Granted a particular choice may be more suitable for one thing vs another but the tenants remain constant.

 

[webrx]

I wonder sometimes about those that poo poo the 5 or 6 round capacity of a revolver and then carry a 7 round single stack.

I have a 15 rd double stack for things that go bump in the night, but I carry a LC9s or LCP. And have been known to stick a lcrx revolver in a pocket holster and jacket pocket when needed.

stay alert, avoid bad places if you can. Use the gun to get away or to a safe place.

d

 

[chicharrones]

I wonder sometimes about those that poo poo the 5 or 6 round capacity of a revolver and then carry a 7 round single stack.

I have a 15 rd double stack for things that go bump in the night, but I carry a LC9s or LCP. And have been known to stick a lcrx revolver in a pocket holster and jacket pocket when needed.

stay alert, avoid bad places if you can. Use the gun to get away or to a safe place.

d

I'm not against carrying a 5-shooter, but practicing double taps made me realize that having more than 2.5 double taps makes me feel a bit more . . . prepared.

Which can make someone like me lean to a gun with 3 double taps, 3.5 double taps, 4 double taps, and so on. It seems like I'm pretty much stuck at 3 to 4 double taps in my usual carry guns, though.

 

[Kleanbore]

I wonder sometimes about those that poo poo the 5 or 6 round capacity of a revolver and then carry a 7 round single stack.

Well, 7>5.

How much greater? Ans: more than one might think. That's because of the way statistics work. If one expects a realistic 30% hit rate, then the difference between the probability of succeeding with 7 shots vs 5 is grater than 40%.

Take a look at the linked analysis. It you don't like the assumed hit rate, choose your own and run the numbers yourself.

Take your handgun to a good defensive shooting class and run through some of the irills. Shoot 3 quick shots into one target and 3 into another immediately thereafter. Think about shooting until the threat is down. Ask yourself whether it is reasonable to shot, pause, assess, shoot, pause, assess....

Decide for yourself. I carry 8.

[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/thoughts-on-multiple-assailants-hit-rate-capacity.665883/"]Thoughts on Multiple Assailants, Hit Rate & Capacity[/URL]

 

[webrx]

I get it, and not trying to start an argument, but honestly, and yes it is always better to be prepared, I have been carrying on and off for close to 40 years, I have never found or put myself in a situation where I had to pull in the continental US.

I hope I never do, but I carry just in case.

maybe for me, and maybe not for you, that is why I have never felt ill equipped with a revolver or single stack.

If that changes, ie I am involved in a situation, then I will have to assess my thoughts and re-equip if I am still able to.

Dave.

 

[webrx]

I would be interested in a survey of carry options

how many carry a revolver, single stack, double stack as their primary.

no need to justify, or elaborate, just what do you carry.

I searched but did not see one, maybe I missed it.

 

[EMC45]

I would be interested in a survey of carry options

how many carry a revolver, single stack, double stack as their primary.

no need to justify, or elaborate, just what do you carry.

I searched but did not see one, maybe I missed it.

I do. All 3 depending on circumstances.

 

[GEM]

I have had situations which luckily didn't go to guns but it was four possible opponents. Avoidance is your friend as is more rounds.

The gist of this is:

1. If you carry a lesser gun, do you train with it? Not just rounds at a square range target.
2. Do you acknowledge explicitly its limitations and range of its options? Don't deny them by saying things outside of that range never happen. Accept that range of options.
3. Cut the bad neighbor baloney, that's a silly argument. Too many bad things happen in good neighborhoods.

A semi and an extra mag is easy to carry and what most experts thing is a reasonable EDC for out into a reasonable range of more intense critical incidents. That's mine unless dress confines me to a smaller gun. Then it's a J or G42 and a reload.

 

[chicharrones]

I would be interested in a survey of carry options

how many carry a revolver, single stack, double stack as their primary.

no need to justify, or elaborate, just what do you carry.

I searched but did not see one, maybe I missed it.

I'm pretty sure there's a poll somewhere on THR related to that, but I never have much luck with searching THR. Even today.

But really, that poll could be about capacity no matter the gun type. Some folks do carry 8-shot revolvers, whether .22 or .357.

 

[WheelGunMan]

I do. All 3 depending on circumstances.

Ditto!

 

[Kleanbore]

I have been carrying on and off for close to 40 years, I have never found or put myself in a situation where I had to pull in the continental US.

For me, it is 13.

I hope I never do, but I carry just in case.

So do I.

that is why I have never felt ill equipped with a revolver or single stack.

We should not carry to "feel equipped"--that's a rather useless commodity.

If that changes, ie I am involved in a situation, then I will have to assess my thoughts and re-equip if I am still able to

Don't you think that would be a terrible time for that to come up?

 

[Herman B]

Generally, training is clinical, low-pressure and certainly non-consequential. Most have zero, regular experience with life/death circumstances unfolding in a blink that require presence of mind. I bet they'd be surprised to see just how many rounds can be squeezed-off in a few panic-stricken seconds. A revo reload, if carried, is tedious at best. Not knocking revos/carriers but human nature has us inflating our abilities.

 

[Riomouse911]

And that’s exactly what I was saying; If you choose to carry any gun you MUST shoot it enough to become competent, confident and capable and you’ll be in much better shape than “Johnny one box” who bought a gun and 50 rounds, dirtied the cylinder with 40 shots and now proudly packs it daily tucked in his belt. Sadly, too many haven’t fired their gun enough to attain any of the above three...and when it all falls apart in front of them they’ll potentially pay a dear price.

To attain competence, confidence and capability with a snub, the buyer will have to shoot their small revolver(s) enough to know what you can and can’t do with them as well or easily as you can with a larger capacity compact semi; quickly reload if you miss a couple of times and the gun battle goes into extra innings, to engage multiple attackers with multiple shots (since rarely do determined people fall or stop after the first or even the second shot), understanding that flaws in the fundamentals of shooting can be exaggerated by the limited sighting plane and the (usually) small grips and vestigial sights often found on the snub guns, so hitting where you want to can be much more difficult than with the 6” L-frame or 5” 1911 .45 you own, etc.

Every single handgun has limitations, but that doesn’t mean they’re inadequate. Snub revolvers have a unique set of them as just a few examples above point out. The new snub revolver carrier has to know they exist, understand what they are and plan to overcome or circumvent these limitations as much as possible in advance. (In many potential circumstances it may be most prudent to not become involved at all.)

Of my 70-odd handguns at least 9 are revolvers with sub-3” barrels and an equal amount are smaller framed or compact semis. I’ve put tens of thousands of rounds through both small revolvers and compact semis; often on pass/fail qualification courses stretching to 25 yards or more... which is a bit beyond the normal range small handguns are best suited for. Ive taught and qualified dozens and dozens of sworn and non sworn people on both compact revolvers and compact semi autos. I’ve even fired a couple of 50-yard demos for DA’s with court cases involving defendants accused of illegally shooting small guns at victims to show the ability of hitting torso sized targets with little guns is certainly possible. I’m nowhere near a Massad Ayoob or Larry Vickers by any stretch, but I’m also not some rube standing by the gun counter making snarky comments at new guy buyers who have questions for the store clerks, either.

Over the decades of shooting and 15 plus years teaching people with small revolvers I’ve learned the limitations of these guns and understand just what I can and can’t do with one in a ccw situation. While no one can teach another very much via a thread post, one may suggest that a person contemplating a snub revolver attend a good training course, learn as much as they can on the range and through manipulation and dry fire practice (safely unloaded) so they go out with their new snub ccw eyes wide open. As competence and confidence are being attained, understanding the capabilities/limitations of gun and user falls next in line.

Sorry for the rant, but this gets old.

Stay safe.

 

[GEM]

Not all training is low pressure. The best FOF is rather stressful. Folks have freaked out, have to be told to breathe, disarmed by the SOs, got hurt (inevitable even with the best practices). I grant you that it is not real life but realistic simulations have worked for many fields of stressful action.

Riomouse - great post.

 

[Kleanbore]

Riomouse, that is indeed a great post.

 

[EMC45]

And that’s exactly what I was saying; If you choose to carry any gun you MUST shoot it enough to become competent, confident and capable and you’ll be in much better shape than “Johnny one box” who bought a gun and 50 rounds, dirtied the cylinder with 40 shots and now proudly packs it daily tucked in his belt. Sadly, too many haven’t fired their gun enough to attain any of the above three...and when it all falls apart in front of them they’ll potentially pay a dear price.

To attain competence, confidence and capability with a snub, the buyer will have to shoot their small revolver(s) enough to know what you can and can’t do with them as well or easily as you can with a larger capacity compact semi; quickly reload if you miss a couple of times and the gun battle goes into extra innings, to engage multiple attackers with multiple shots (since rarely do determined people fall or stop after the first or even the second shot), understanding that flaws in the fundamentals of shooting can be exaggerated by the limited sighting plane and the (usually) small grips and vestigial sights often found on the snub guns, so hitting where you want to can be much more difficult than with the 6” L-frame or 5” 1911 .45 you own, etc.

Every single handgun has limitations, but that doesn’t mean they’re inadequate. Snub revolvers have a unique set of them as just a few examples above point out. The new snub revolver carrier has to know they exist, understand what they are and plan to overcome or circumvent these limitations as much as possible in advance. (In many potential circumstances it may be most prudent to not become involved at all.)

Of my 70-odd handguns at least 9 are revolvers with sub-3” barrels and an equal amount are smaller framed or compact semis. I’ve put tens of thousands of rounds through both small revolvers and compact semis; often on pass/fail qualification courses stretching to 25 yards or more... which is a bit beyond the normal range small handguns are best suited for. Ive taught and qualified dozens and dozens of sworn and non sworn people on both compact revolvers and compact semi autos. I’ve even fired a couple of 50-yard demos for DA’s with court cases involving defendants accused of illegally shooting small guns at victims to show the ability of hitting torso sized targets with little guns is certainly possible. I’m nowhere near a Massad Ayoob or Larry Vickers by any stretch, but I’m also not some rube standing by the gun counter making snarky comments at new guy buyers who have questions for the store clerks, either.

Over the decades of shooting and 15 plus years teaching people with small revolvers I’ve learned the limitations of these guns and understand just what I can and can’t do with one in a ccw situation. While no one can teach another very much via a thread post, one may suggest that a person contemplating a snub revolver attend a good training course, learn as much as they can on the range and through manipulation and dry fire practice (safely unloaded) so they go out with their new snub ccw eyes wide open. As competence and confidence are being attained, understanding the capabilities/limitations of gun and user falls next in line.

Sorry for the rant, but this gets old.

Stay safe.

Excellent post.

 

[Sarge7402]

Many years ago there was a story out of South Africa (if my memory serves me correctly) of an older gentleman armed with a 5 shot snub nosed revolver shooting it out against 3 terrorists armed with AK 47's . Seems the old man had little trouble in routing the miscreants. Most times it's not the strength of tool the man is armed with but the internal strength of the man himself

 

[Risky buisness]

Im

I would be interested in a survey of carry options

how many carry a revolver, single stack, double stack as their primary.

no need to justify, or elaborate, just what do you carry.

I searched but did not see one, maybe I missed it.

I'm about 60/40, the majority of it being the j frame around the property.
As we with many others, its situational, but I dont vary the carry method or placement, ever.

 

[Risky buisness]

Generally, training is clinical, low-pressure and certainly non-consequential. Most have zero, regular experience with life/death circumstances unfolding in a blink that require presence of mind. I bet they'd be surprised to see just how many rounds can be squeezed-off in a few panic-stricken seconds. A revo reload, if carried, is tedious at best. Not knocking revos/carriers but human nature has us inflating our abilities.

If I may venture to say, in my opinion that those folks who have been to ' trainings ' like you describe have been to the absolute wrong ones, if in reference to a brand new user, for familiarity and manipulation only then perhaps.
A serious user contemplating using ANY handgun should seek and attend an accredited get down and dirty school and do so regularly plus range time with those acquired skills and increase the training level.

 

[Rexster]

With my aging back I’m finding more and more a lighter gun is just about all I can comfortably carry day in and day out when concealing inside the waistband. One gun I am interested in is the Ruger LCP. I greatly appreciate the reliability of a snub nosed revolver but are these guns capable enough to serve as a primary weapon? I live in a low crime neighborhood.

Does anyone here carry a snub nose 5 shot as a primary weapon, not just as a backup gun?

Yes. I still consider my aging, increasingly-gimpy right hand to be my “primary” weapon hand, and, a Ruger SP101 is an ergonomic best* compact firearm weapon for that hand. A J-Snub needs an over-sized grip, to work well, and the resulting combo is as large as an SP101, so, well, SP101 it is. I have nothing against the LCR; it is simply that I have not yet used one.

I have one question: Why IWB? I am not expecting a reply; this is something that one answers for one’s self. If am am going to tote IWB, behind the hip, a short-barreled barrel is painful, whereas a longer-barreled weapon is much more comfortable. If IWB, forward of the hip, something with 3” of barrel works better, for me, than something with only 2” of barrel. Of course, we are all built differently, but I am certainly not the only one who likes a bit more than 2” of barrel, if carrying inside the trousers.

Regarding “low crime” neighborhoods, versus other types of neighborhoods, well, I am comfortable with an SP101 being my primary weapon in not-so-low-crime areas, but I up-gun with more resources, which might well mean another another SP101, and/or more or bigger guns, positioned for access by my healthier left hand, which is aging more gracefully than my right. (I am left-eye-dominant, write lefty, and a lefty with most fine motor skills, so, effectively ambidextrous with most of my handguns. Carrying right-side primary, and Otra Pistola lefty, made practical/tactical sense, in 1984, when I could first legally carry, as a rookie LEO.)

To be clear, I do not always carry a second firearm.

I do live in one of the safest neighborhoods in the USA, but, a loop of the Insterstate Highway system is nearby, so, realistically, anything can happen, and our block surely has seemed to catch quite a bit of crime, recently. And, on a quiet night, with a SE, south, or SW breeze, I can stand outside and hear occasional gunfire, from some of the less-nice neighborhoods.

*If a weapon’s grip does not make firm contact with the “heel bone” of my right hand, it will aggravate the arthritis in the hand and wrist. The factory SP101 grip is just the right size and shape to reach just far enough.

 

[Telum Pisces]

Carry what you are comfortable carrying. It's better than not carrying because it's uncomfortable.

 

[.38 Special]

I won't weigh in on the round count discussion, but I will say that I don't shoot snubs especially well, no matter how much practice I put in. Speaking only for myself, I consider them very short range weapons. I doubt my ability to make a good shot with one across a darkened theatre, for example.

For me, every little bit of barrel length (which is to say "sight radius", really) I can get with a smaller revolver is worth its weight in gold. I still am comfortable packing a 4" steel K frame (around 40 oz.) but when/if I start feeling the weight I will take a hard look for scandium/Ti/aluminum revolvers with at least 3" and preferably 4" barrels. Those are rare as hen's teeth, unfortunately, but still can be found on the used market, or could prior to the end of the world. Something like the long-discontinued 386sc Mountain Lite would be about perfect, I think. Seven shot .357 L frame with a 3 1/8" barrel, scandium/titanium construction for 18.5 ounces. And good luck finding one.

 

[SteadyD]

Sorry I haven’t gone through the whole thread, but what do you think your weight limit is?

Kimber K6s - 23 oz, 6 shot 357 Magnum
Ruger LCR 327 - 17 oz, 6 shot 327 magnum
S&W 327 PC - 23 oz, 8 shot 357 magnum

You don’t have to sacrifice your capacity all the way down to 5 shots if these weights seem doable.

 

[ericuda]

I am curious why all the +p is carried in a snubby. I don't see anything wrong with a wadcutter or xtp at moderate 38 loads. Sure wouldn't wanta get hit with one. No not as good as a hot 357 but that isn't as good as a shotgun. Carry for me is comfort, reliability and if course familiarity with weapon. But as others say practice too, I have shot 500 or so rounds in the last couple weeks since getting mine and ill probably taper down to 20 or so a week as other hobbies and work is here.