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So 7.62x39mm isn't a rifle round?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by TheOtherOne, Nov 21, 2004.

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  1. TheOtherOne

    TheOtherOne Member

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    I was told that the ATF considers 7.62x39 a pistol round and as a result they won't let anyone import military surplus? If that's true, doesn't it mean the already cheap Wolf ammo would be even cheaper if milsurp could be imported?
     
  2. George S.

    George S. Member

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    Ammoman has some Yugo 7.62x39 ammo that comes in a military-style case:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Hard to say if this is specifically military-issue ammo but the pics could make that inference.
     
  3. DMK

    DMK Member

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    I find that very hard to believe.

    a) I don't even think there even is an actual factory made pistol out there that shoots this caliber (with the exception of single shot multi-caliber guns like the Contender).

    b) It's possible the person meant 7.62x25 which is a pistol round. However, even that gets imported as military surplus now and again. I've never heard of a ban on surplus pistol ammo. In fact, I just bought some milsurp Santa Barbara .38 Special and .380 last year.
     
  4. TheOtherOne

    TheOtherOne Member

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    No they were definitely talking about 7.62x39 because we were talking about making a pistol out of one of the AMD-65 kits.

    Considering the pics above, it probably isn't true though.
     
  5. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

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    ATFE DOES consider 7.62x39 a handgun round, and here's why:

    Back in the early 1990s Olympic Arms announced plans to introduce a 7.62x39mm-chambered AR-15 pistol. A number of other folks in the industry asked them not to, because they knew that ATF would then reclassify 7.62x39 as a handgun round, which would cut off all the cheap milsurp steel-core ammo. (Since steel cored handgun ammo is banned as "armor piercing" by fedlaw.)

    OlyArms went ahead and introduced the 7.62x39 AR pistol and as expected, ATF reclassified the round as a handgun cartridge, and that is how all the good cheap steel-cored 7.62x39 milsurp ammo got cut off.

    Thanks for nothing, OlyArms. :cuss:
     
  6. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    Thats stupid. Just because ONE gun is made for a caliber, it becomes a handgun? What about the Encore, is that an exception, or are all those calibers considered handgun rounds?

    One would think that a better idea would be something like anything with over 50% of the available models are handguns, the round woulid be for handguns.
     
  7. DesertRat

    DesertRat Member

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    Hmmm... The 30-06, 308, 25-06, 7MM Mag, etc, etc, etc... must be handgun rounds too, as each of these, I believe, have been produced by Thompson / Center in their Contender models. :barf:
     
  8. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    The BATmen are not interested in better ideas, they are interested in more regulations and restrictions. Gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
     
  9. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    Per an early-1994 BATF administrative ruling (based on the Oly Arms fiasco), 7.62x39, .223, and .308 are considered "handgun rounds" for the purpose of the 1986 "cop-killer bullet" law, which outlaws "handgun rounds" that have more than a certain percentage of steel, hard copper alloys, tungsten, etc.
     
  10. DMK

    DMK Member

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    Huh. Learn something new everyday.

    BATF. :barf:
     
  11. ID_shooting

    ID_shooting Member

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    "Per an early-1994 BATF administrative ruling (based on the Oly Arms fiasco), 7.62x39, .223, and .308 are considered "handgun rounds" for the purpose of the 1986 "cop-killer bullet" law, which outlaws "handgun rounds" that have more than a certain percentage of steel, hard copper alloys, tungsten, etc."

    Link?
     
  12. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    Seems a good reason to never buy anything from OlyArms.
     
  13. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIL3.html
     
  14. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    Of course, no steel-cored 7.62x39 is currently being imported nor has any been knowingly and legally imported for 10 years. Hmmm, it saves us $3 a CASE to have the steel cored ammo, not really a big deal in the end in terms of economics. Steel cored ammo makes sparks when it hits rocks... cool. Much more fun than the modern crap from Russia. I've still got half a case of steel cored Norinco. Anybody want it? I just shot 200 rounds of it a few weeks ago... pretty sparks.
    No, this is wrong. Surplus ammo is fine so long as it doesn't have a steel core. It's different in California, methinks, as they also have prohibition against steel jacketed bullets. I think there is also a prohibition of surplus ammo that the United States 'gave' to other countries under the guise of military assistance being reimported into the US. Not sure about that one.
     
  15. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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    7.62 NATO AP illegal
    30'06 AP legal ATF considers it obsolete?
    Gov. regs have no logic.
     
  16. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

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    This is true ASSuming the round in question is not a "handgun" round. Hence the inability to import steel-cored 7.62x39. In contrast, you can buy steel-cored 7.62x54R, since it's a "rifle" cartridge.

    BTW, I'd post what I think of OA for doing this, but Art's Gramma would not be pleased.
     
  17. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    Olympic Arms stepped deeply in that steaming pile...

    And went ahead with the prototypes for the OA-93 pistol chambered in 7.62x39, against the advise of the industry. Search for Robert Schuetz and Thomas Spithaler along with OA-93 for the whole story, or better yet, look here:

    Olympic Arms and the banning of steel-core 7.62x39 ammo.
     
  18. SunBear

    SunBear member

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    Sooooooo.....Olympic Arms stands up to a tangled, illogical government bureaucracy and THEY are the "bad guys"??? If you do it you're a patriot. right?

    Yeah, right! Whatever.
     
  19. conan

    conan Member

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    Why the heck did Olympic Arms disregard everyone's advice? I have heard that the previously imported steel core was more accurate than the wolf we get today? And what the heck does it matter anyway? Won't any 7.62x39, 223, 308 easily penetrate a vest no matter what the bullet's made of?

    Also, I saw an AK-47 pistol @ the gunshow today. 14" barrel and no stock.
     
  20. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    Blaming Olympic arms for the 'ban' defies even my best political logic. Those who bent over backwards to villianize Ruger for their high capacity magazine de-facto ban will jump on Olympic? The way I look at it, Olympic was producing a legal weapon for a wanting market and the BATF be damned. That's the kind of responsibility from the gun manufacturers we should laud, not lambast. If the BATF is going to beat up the gun industry regardless, why should gun companies intentionally restrict their design and manufacture practices in hopes that the BATF won't beat them down again? Whoever blames Olympic Arms should rethink the facts.
     
  21. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Once again, folks are blaming BATFE for enforcing the law. The law states that no ammunition of a type that can be used in a handgun and that has a steel core can be made or imported for public sale. BATFE simply made the regulation and ruled (correctly) that if a pistol was made for a given cartridge, it is a handgun round. Whether any of those pistols were used in crime or whether any AP ammo of that caliber was used in a crime it not relevant; the law is the law, and anyone is free to try to have it changed or to challenge it in court. Good luck!

    Since Oly and Thompson introduced pistols in many previously rifle calibers, the ban extends to many rounds we would normally consider rifle ammunition. I am not sure .30-'06 is one of them, but 7.62 NATO is.

    FWIW, an AP ammo ban will be introduced in the new Congress to outlaw ANY ammunition capable of penetrating ANY police bullet resistant vest. This bill, which was defeated in this Congress, would ban almost all center fire rifle ammunition as well as most pistol ammunition and some shotgun loads; it was voted for by Mr. Kerry and almost the entire Democratic membership, and they will support it when it comes up again.

    Jim
     
  22. Sam Adams

    Sam Adams Member

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    Rebar

    " OlyArms went ahead and introduced the 7.62x39 AR pistol"

    "Seems a good reason to never buy anything from OlyArms."

    It is a damned good reason - Olympic had ample warning as to EXACTLY why they shouldn't have produced that pistol. I know that when I bought my AR in '98 I considered Olympic - for about 0.5 seconds, until I remembered what those bastages did. I know of several other people who did the same.

    I wonder how much in sales Oly has lost because of that stupid, anti-gunowner decision? I know that they haven't sold many of those stupid pistols, so that serves them right. I will NEVER buy ANY Olympic Arms product.
     
  23. Sam Adams

    Sam Adams Member

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    The .30-06 round, as well as the 62 grain .223 AP round are specifically exempted from the rule/law that we've been discussing.

    Further, the only thing that is restricted for those of us who aren't FFLs selling to the public is MAKING the AP round - and for purposes of this rule the AP round is defined as the BULLET itself. Thus, there is nothing to legally prevent someone from either buying pulled 163 AP rounds and loading them into any .30 cal rifle round. I would hesitate to put one into a .30 pistol round, even though that would be technically legal, because you'd probably have more trouble than it was worth - and the rounds are not particularly accurate anyway. Either that, or you could buy the .30-06 AP rounds at any gunshow, pull the bullets yourself, and then load them into, say, a .308 case for use in your M1A or Remington 700 or whatever.

    As mentioned above, I'm still ticked off at Olympic. I bought about half a case of that yellow boxed 7.62 AP back in '92 or so, and I only have about 10 boxes left. It was cheap, and it shoots dependably (if not particularly accurately, but what does one expect from an SKS).
     
  24. mountaindrew

    mountaindrew Member

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    The OlyArms decision may have been a ballsy act of defiance, BATF be damned, but it was an irresponcible one that had bad consequences, that were easily predictiable and preventable. you don't congradulate someone for doing something stupid that hurts us all, even if you agree with what they did on principal.

    As a community, we need to stick together and think about the consequences of our actions on others, not just try to make a quick buck off a new product.
     
  25. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    They weren't irresponsible, they weren't trying to 'make a buck,' and they weren't hurting us. What they were doing was producing a product. When S&W said that they were going to do the 'responsible' thing and cave to the pressure of dozens of demands to prevent the Government from further punishing the gun industry, the same people who are mad at Olympic were mad at S&W, but not for the same reason. I can make a 50 caliber pistol in my back yard... once I've done that then that makes 50 caliber BMG a pistol round? I think not. It's the LAW that was stupid, people, not a company that refused to give-in to a stupid law. If you don't like Ruger for caving on high-capacity magazines, fine... you've got a beef. If you don't like S&W (old) for caving in, fine... I agreed and boycotted them myself. But, to boycott Olympic for producing a legal product just rubs me the wrong way. It was the US GOVERNMENT that was making you pay 3/10's of a cent more for your cartridge (made by slave labor in China I might add). In the end, it was ALL Chinese ammo that they sought to ban, not just the steel-cored Norinco. They ended up banning it anyhow, without the help of the law. There was and is a market for the Olympic Arms pistol in 7.62x39 and I applaud OlyArms for seeing the market and making the product at the pressure of the EVIL importer who wanted to make a buck and was willing to cave in to do it!

    That's the Crux of the argument, isn't it? You guys were happy with the import of super-cheap slave-produced, commie-supporting ammo (as was I). We were all shooting the cheap stuff and MAKING A BUCK by doing it. Then, poof, it's all gone! Well, it's Olympic Arms' fault now for trying to 'make a buck' off of a weapon? Did't B-West already produce 7.62x39mm pistols? I remember seeing them. Did that make the round a pistol round? No. The whold cop-killer bullet craze was a black eye to the whole concept of common sense that was brought to us care of the US Government and overzealous anti-gun freaks like Schumer, Kennedy, and Feinstein, not the good people at Olympic Arms.
     
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