So, changes being implemented starting today with firearms transfers?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by lsudave, Sep 27, 2022.

  1. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    I get that 100%.

    Here is how it goes in the small local shop I frequent. They are usually sitting (or standing) right next to me as I fill out the 4473 and they are going over it and inputting the needed information into the online NICS at the same time. And They have does this right in front of ATF agents too. I'm not saying it is right or wrong either, but that is how that shop does things at least with me. I have known them a long time and I always have my UPIN and valid CCW with me. No Missouri CCW permits are not exempt from the NICS check.

    Now I don't expect this to happen in a big box store like Bass Pro, Academy, etc.
     
  2. toivo

    toivo Member

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    New York permits used to qualify, until the early 2000s, when the Feds figured out that NY's upkeep of their permit database was nil.

    Eleanor Roosevelt was still on the list. Yeah, that one: Hyde Park, NY. She died in 1962. Sheesh. When they digitized it all, didn't anybody notice?
     
  3. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Here's the ATF letter to Alabama FFL's explaining why:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/alabama-july2019-public-safety-advisory-alabama-federal-firearms-licensees/download
     
  4. zdc1775

    zdc1775 Member

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    I love that they don't name the counties/sheriffs that was doing this in the actual letter.

    Here's one of them. https://www.wvtm13.com/article/alabama-court-affirms-felony-convictions-limestone-county-sheriff-mike-blakely/41478696#
     
  5. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

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    You are of course correct, but Michigan law controls who can or cannot obtain a Michigan CPL, and there is a Michigan Statute that prohibits denying any rights or privileges to Medical Marijuana card holders.

    From Michigan Open Carry:

    Lastly, Section 4 of the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act (MCL 333.26424) protects cardholders from being “denied any right or privilege”. Note, this Act is an “initiated law”, which means it can not be repealed, preempted, or modified without a supermajority (75% of the house and senate). So, even if a Michigan licensing authority wanted to deny a cardholder a License to Purchase a pistol or a CPL, they would be statutorily prohibited from doing so.
     
  6. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    Missouri is no different now that we have medical marihuana laws. Regardless of state laws, you still MUST follow federal laws too. This is especially true when it comes to federal firearms laws. And until marihuana is legalized on the federal level, one can not possess a firearm if they have a medical card.
     
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  7. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Correct. The instructions on the Form 4473 do not state that a buyer who possesses a medical marijuana card is prohibited for possessing firearms. It does ask if the buyer is an unlawful user.

    The next to last paragraph explains ATF's view on medial marijuana cards here:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-sept2011-open-letter-marijuana-medicinal-purposes/download

     
  8. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    I'll quote the paragraph that dogtown tom pointed out. Where it mentions possession of a medical card is in bold.

     
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  9. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    If I hadn't of seen it happening I would not have believed it. VT, that I lived in at one point, was one of the first to have pot dispensaries and as such issue cards for them. I watched someone use the card as proof of VT residency when buying a firearm. Store owner just shook his head, took the 4473 and gun off the counter, and said he couldn't complete the sale. Some people are just not all too smart.
     
  10. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Seems they have been practicing leaks here lately or the information is obtained by “hackers” and we don’t know who has it.

    Point being it will be out there ant the more people that have it, well the more people have it…

    This way, even if they don’t come get it yet others know all about you.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/30/california-gun-owners-data-breach

    and no single source has to take the blame as the information is everywhere.
     
  11. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

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    This is dangerously close to straying off topic, but in Michigan you can obtain a Michigan Concealed Pistol License without ever purchasing or possessing a handgun.

    Likewise, you can obtain a Michigan Medical Marijuana card without ever having used or possessed marijuana.

    The ATF may treat possession of a Medical Marijuana card as prima facie evidence of being a user of marijuana, but the 4473 doesn't ask if you have a card, it asks if you use marijuana.
     
  12. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    FFL holders still must follow the laws, regulations, and guidelines if they want to keep their FFL and not get fined or get prosecuted. And the open letter to ALL FFL holders is clear about medical marijuana cards.
     
  13. plainsdrifter

    plainsdrifter Member

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    I get delays half the time but NEVER have been denied. It's stupid and pisses me off to no end. I believe its my cousin back east who has nearly and identical name but different middle and he has a rap sheet as long as my arm. I even have put in my SS# and still got a delay. I leave out SS# and get the gun in twenty minutes. Makes no sense.

    I refuse to pay the CCW TAX ! And since I live in AZ I don't have to. I'd like to since I go to NM a lot.

    So this is going to force my hand and I will NOT buy any more guns through an FFL. Just person to person. It's going to hurt FFL's more than me.
     
  14. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

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    But the ATF Letter doesn't say that all Medical Marijuana Card Holders must answer "yes" to question 21e, it says all Medical Marijuana users must answer "yes." The letter also says that if the FFL has knowledge that the potential buyer has a Medical Marijuana card, then that is "reasonable cause to believe" that the person is an unlawful user and the purchase must be denied.

    As previously stated, a card holder isn't necessarily a marijuana user. Probably 99.999% are, but the 4473 doesn't ask if the person has a card, it only asks if the person is a user.

    Hence the semantics regarding Michigan not denying CPLs to Medical Marijuana card holders. And it is that 99.999% probability that caused the ATF to stop recognizing Michigan CPLs as a substitute for a NICS check.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2022
  15. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    While Marijuana is legal at state level, it is still illegal at the federal level. And FFL holders must abide by BOTH state and federal laws. Just because one can get a Michigan CPL while in possession of a Medical Marijuana card still does not make it legal on the federal level. The federal laws would have to be changed.
     
  16. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

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    You're not seeing the nuance. Possessing a card does not disqualify because the law says user, not card holder.

    The ATF directed FFLs to deny the sale if they have knowledge of a buyer in possession of a card, but doesn't direct the FFLs to ask if the buyer has a card. The 4473 doesn't ask if the buyer has a card, it asks if the buyer is a user.

    Again, it is not unlawful to be in possession of a Medical Marijuana card and purchase or possess a firearm. It is unlawful only if you USE that card to obtain Medical Marijuana.

    Why would someone obtain a card but not use it? I don't know, but it is possible. Federal Law doesn't prohibit a card holder from buying a firearm. The ATF prohibits an FFL from selling to a person who is a card holder only if the FFL knows about the card, but doesn't instruct the FFL to ask if the seller has a card. The only way an FFL knows if the potential buyer has a card is if the buyer voluntarily discloses that information, or the FFL voluntarily asks the question. But the FFL is not compelled to ask the question, the 4473 doesn't ask the question, and if the card holding buyer has never used marijuana then they are not lying if they answer "no" to question 11e on the 4473.
     
  17. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Good luck dancing around with "but, but, but....I have a medical marijuana card but I dont actually use marijuana!".
    As always, you might beat the rap, but you never beat the ride.
     
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  18. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    @F-111 John we can argue the point until blue in the face. Arguing will NOT change federal laws. And state laws also do not trump federal laws, ATF regulations or open letters to ALL federal firearms licenses holders.

    It is what it is, no matter how you feel about the subject.
     
  19. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Except in what appears to be the only federal court of appeal case to address the question directly, Wilson v. Lynch, 835 F.3d 1083 (9th Cir. 2016), ruled the an FFL's knowledge that the transferee had a medical marijuana card was grounds for the FFL decline the transfer.
     
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  20. plainsdrifter

    plainsdrifter Member

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    Weed has hardly anything to do in this topic. So really? Who cares, no one would tell the truth about having a card anyways unless they were stupid.

    The real issue here is this is going to curb gun sales. I believe that is it's intention.
     
  21. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

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    We have already established and conceded that if the FFL knows about the card, the sale must be declined.

    What Wilson v. Lynch also said was:

    Id. (citations and internal quotation marks omitted). The burden on Wilson's core Second Amendment right is not severe. Title 18 U.S.C. § 922(d)(3), 27 C.F.R. § 478.11, and the Open Letter bar only the sale of firearms to Wilson—not her possession of firearms. Wilson could have amassed legal firearms before acquiring a registry card, and 18 U.S.C. § 922(d)(3), 27 C.F.R. § 478.11, and the Open Letter would not impede her right to keep her firearms or to use them to protect herself and her home. In addition, Wilson could acquire firearms and exercise her right to self-defense at any time by surrendering her registry card, thereby demonstrating to a firearms dealer that there is no reasonable cause to believe she is an unlawful drug user.
    So if the FFL doesn't ask if the person is a card holder, and the person doesn't reveal to the FFL that they are a card holder, and the person has never used the card to obtain marijuana (as in Wilson's case), the sale can be completed lawfully.

    It was because the FFL knew of Wilson's possession of a card that the sale was declined.
     
  22. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    A buddy of mine, and fellow instructor, who works in a LGS has commented a number of times that folks with some regularity present a medical marijuana card as ID when [trying] buying a gun.
     
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  23. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    I have even had guys come into the shop reeking of marijuana and expect to look at and/or purchase a firearm. IF you smell like it or show a card - then no sale.
     
  24. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    And even that isn't accurate.

    The test, as set out in the statutes is whether the transferee/FFL "knows or has reasonable cause to believe" that the transferee is prohibited (whether as an unlawful drug user or otherwise). And whether the FFL knew or had reasonable cause to believe that the transferee was prohibited would be decided by the totality of the circumstances.

    So if you contend that the only way in which an FFL might have reasonable cause to believe that the buyer is an unlawful user of a controlled substance would be if the buyer were to tell the FFL he had a medical marijuana card, whether responding to an FFL's query or otherwise, let's see you prove it.
     
  25. plainsdrifter

    plainsdrifter Member

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    If Cheech an Chong walked into a gun shop and wanted to buy a gun what do y'all think would happen?
     
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