So I ask this what is your competency level?

[Hangingrock]

Better Shooting –Dave Anderson (American Handgunner May/ June 2016)

“What would be a reasonable degree of competence? It’s a matter of opinion, but I’d say if you can hit a 10” diameter target every time at a distance of 10 yards you’re reasonably competent. Note I don’t mean shooting 10” groups. I mean hitting a 10” diameter every time. To achieve this the shots can’t be randomly distributed over the circle; the majority of the bullet holes will be clustered in the central portion of the target.”

So I ask this what is your competency level?


Me on a good day

 

[LiveLife]

I tell people to practice shooting so they can achieve 4"-6" average shot groups at defensive shooting distances (3-7 yards) regardless of shooting stance/grip using their carry pistols with premium JHP/bonded HP ammunition. I tell them to place two to four 8.5"x11" copy papers on cardboard backing to shoot at multiple targets.

For fullsize service pistols (Glock 17/22, Sig, Beretta etc.) using typical economy target ammunition (white box, etc.), I have used 1" at 7 yards, 2" at 10 yards and 3" at 15 yards as slow fire accuracy reference shot off hand.

For accurate reloads, I use 1" at 15 yards and 2" at 25 yards shot off sandbags as my slow fire accuracy reference.

But for practical shooting rapid fire drills, I use 8.5"x11" copy paper targets out to 15 yards for multiple double tap shots. For USPSA match practice, I used 1/2 sheets of copy paper out to 15 yards and practiced until all the double taps were inside during 500 round practice sessions.

 

[Chuck R.]

How much time? What are the other conditions?

IMHO 10" at 30' isn't hard, unless you start ratcheting up your conditions. I routinely shoot 8" plates at 7 yards with a 1st shot under 1.3-1.4 seconds from an OWB holster.

That's like saying an El Presidente drill is relatively easy, unless you're trying to make a "Master" PAR time of 5.3 seconds.

This target is a Failure to Stop drill at 30', from an OWB holster first shot in under 1.5 seconds with splits of .35-45:



IMHO, there's more that goes into competence with a handgun than just group size.

Chuck

 

[armoredman]

I can reliably hit Thugly, (1/2 scale IDPA steel target), at 25 yards standing two hand hold with the CZ P-09, quick fire. I don't know what that says about COMBAT accuracy, but my Dept rates me capable.

Edit to add, Chuck, nice shooting, sir.

 

[KCAce]

The 4 5's is a good drill.

Five shots in five seconds into a five inch circle at five yards is a challenge. I first tried this with my buckmark, and then heavier stuff. Best done with a friend that can manage the timer, and you can take turns. I still can't do it more than about a third of the time. Good luck,
Kcace

 

[ArchAngelCD]

5-5-5
5 rounds into a 5 inch circle from 5 yards rapid fire is what I strive for.

Short story, my son was a little down on himself because all his rounds were not in a tiny tight group from 10 yards. He was firing at a 8" paper plate. All the rounds were inside the flat of the plate but not those "show off" groups. To ease his mind I pulled the plate off the backer, placed it over his chest and said, "You understand?" He smiled and said, yeah, I do now. When you can land most of your shots center mass that is also OK because not everyone likes to shooters much as most of us here do. Good hit are CM to stop the attack. That's what really counts, stopping the attack...

 

[LiveLife]

Good point.

And as to "competency", repeatability is key.

On forums, we see pictures of occasional small shot groups without flyers but that's not often representative of average groups with flyers. So when this issue was raised by jmorris on 50/100 yard carbine accuracy testing, I switched from 5 shot to 10 shot group testing.

What counts is competency level that can be repeated over and over on different range sessions and not "once in a blue moon" level of accuracy.

 

[FL-NC]

My "competency level" is ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT- because I can ALWAYS be a little faster and a little more accurate, no matter the exercise or conditions. All shooters owe it to themselves to turn the volume up when they feel they are "good". Weak hand, after a sprint, after 25 push ups, increased distance, lower percentage targets, multiple targets, while someone is spraying you in the face with a water gun- whatever.

 

[Chuck R.]

I can reliably hit Thugly, (1/2 scale IDPA steel target), at 25 yards standing two hand hold with the CZ P-09, quick fire. I don't know what that says about COMBAT accuracy, but my Dept rates me capable.

Edit to add, Chuck, nice shooting, sir.

Thanks, I owe it to:

A. Reloading and going through about 12K in pistol ammo a year
B. Having a range out back
C. Having a wife that understands A&B

Seriously I've had a couple defensive pistol instructors tell me that when your groups start getting smaller than your outstretched hand, it's time to speed things up. Not really a fan of "groups" when it comes to competency in defensive pistol shooting, IMHO there really is much more that goes into it, like reloads, malfunction drills etc. By ratcheting up conditions I mean stuff like adding a timer, odd positions, movement etc. :







Best grouping in the world doesn't mean squat if it's delivered too late.

Chuck

 

[LiveLife]

Our USPSA match stage designer from time to time wanted to make our stages as practical and challenging as possible and often incorporated:

- Weak hand shooting and around cover
- One handed reloads
- Jumping jacks/push ups/spinning in circles before entering start box
- Shooting under cover while prone
- Shooting while laying flat on back
- Moving targets with sliders, rotators, bobbers (through a small window)
- Awkward shooting positions where you had to stretch on one foot while hold on with another hand

Many of us groaned when we saw them as we wanted the easy 7-15 yard standing/hostage targets but the stage designer wanted us to not only shoot for stage score but to enhance our skills (he shot both IDPA and USPSA).

Over the years, we took things further and we "unofficially" incorporated point shooting (no front sights on our pistols), shooting in low light situations by wearing darkened goggles and using unfamiliar pistols for our match stage practice sessions.

 

[joem1945]

I don't do the speed drill. I like to shoot steel out to 150 yards with any pistol I happen to take to the range. I guess I hit 60 to 70% of the time. Most times I'm shooting a steel plate at 35 yards and falling plates at 25 yards.

 

[taliv]

fairly typical hackathorn half drill for me. 10 rounds 5 yards 5 seconds from holster. About half the time i leak one out of the black which adds a sec and usually results in a fail. If I do it from low ready I almost always pass. Same for 10 10 10.

With a warm up I do el prez in 7 sec give or take a sec.

I don't do bullseye with pistol. For some reason I struggle to hold the a zone at 25 yards even slow firing.

 

[taliv]

Hanging rock why is your group in the neck?

If you drew 45 times in a row from a holster are fired that at 10 yards that's impressive. Just seems like an odd place to aim

 

[2zulu1]

For me, competency is first shot accuracy from the holster, cold, no warm up.

 

[LiveLife]

I agree.

My range session usually starts with hanging of target at 7 yards and point shooting double taps at random points on target quick draw from holster for each of pistols I brought.

I also do a modified version where my back is to the target and turn quickly to face the target then quick draw with point shooting double taps.

If you drew 45 times in a row from a holster are fired that at 10 yards that's impressive.

As 2zulu1 posted, it's the first shot from draw that really matters.

I often see people shooting at the same aim point shot after shot the entire box of 50 rounds. For me, having at least two or more aim points on target (bingo dauber works great for this task) to force me to adjust my aim for every shot provides more beneficial practice. In addition to double tap drills at aim points, I will also do quick draw from holster and double tap at random aim point on target.

The RO who taught PD/SD SWAT teams believed being able to shoot in low light condition was crucial and had us practice shooting at POA with our eyes closed at 3-7 yards. Our passing criteria was less than 6" groups at 7 yards while he called out 6 targets on cardboard (Top left, bottom right, etc.) and I incorporate this point shooting with eyes closed as part of my range drills.

 

[Plan2Live]

In response to the OP's photo I have a question. Does your typical 9mm round stop inside the assailant when fired into the chin/throat area? Does competency include not injuring the innocent?

 

[Hangingrock]

Taliv:

Hanging rock why is your group in the neck?
If you drew 45 times in a row from a holster are fired that at 10 yards that's impressive. Just seems like an odd place to aim

Yes I did what I said I did (45) draw strokes @ 10Yds. Yes it was a rather good day and better than most thus worthy of a picture. As for the POA it was more repeatable than the CM of the target where the shots are more dispersed. I thought that picture would get the discussion going if nothing else.


This picture is probably more representative S&W 4506 DA to SA shooting Feb 2014 (73) rounds


S&W MP9 and Glock G19 this picture would also be repersenative

 

[wanderinwalker]

I'm not sure I'd take 10-shots in 10" at 10 yards as "competent" without throwing a speed factor into the equation. If we're talking calm, relaxed on a square range on a nice sunny day, with no time or other stress factors in play, I'd call that in need of more practice and instruction. If that's from a holster, on the clock with a par time, for 10 reps, then I might agree it's a good starting point.

Lately I've been lazy and haven't felt like putting up paper targets for the most part. Which means I've been working over the plate racks at my local club at fixed ranges. We have a set of 6 8" falling plates at about 10 yards that are great for when the snow is on the ground. I've been mixing up my sequence on them with things such as "draw, shoot every other plate right to left" followed by taking the remaining plate in the opposite direction. Throwing a little thinking into the equation has helped keep it interesting.

Another thing I like to do lately is take 6 rounds, 3 magazines and load all 3 magazines. Toss them into a pocket, mix them around, then set-up and shoot all 6 rounds, reloading as needed. The first few times this really threw me for a loop as I was used to running the pistol a set number of rounds to dry. Varying the number of rounds forced me to pay more attention to what was happening. Again, throw thinking back into the equation.

 

[Chuck R.]

For me, competency is first shot accuracy from the holster, cold, no warm up.

Last year I took a pistol class (based on the Gunsite 250 course) that spanned 2 classroom sessions and 3 range days in the course of a month. During the classroom sessions we'd go over drills and practice dryfirng, room clearing etc. prior to range sessions.

Every range session started the same, students on the line, loaded guns holstered with a paper plate in front of you at 5 yards. As the instructor called your name, you drew and took 1 shot at your target while timed. The goal was to get your 1 shot within the flat in under 1.5 seconds. They instructors recorded the times as a way to show progress, and to sort out who had been doing their homework prior to live fire.

For some it was an eye opener.

For multiple targets, this is one of my favorite drills, modified El Presidente, on 8" plates at staggered distance and height:



Chuck

 

[Tactical Lever]

In response to the OP's photo I have a question. Does your typical 9mm round stop inside the assailant when fired into the chin/throat area? Does competency include not injuring the innocent?

I thought it was perhaps an medulla oblongata shot for a (hopefully) instant lights out, no reflexive movement kill. I don't imagine it staying inside the body.

On the original topic, I think there is more value hitting multiple spots when firing. Rather than "one hole" which you can only destroy so much.

I ignore the sights completely for a fast close shot like these. I still use the same grip and 2 hand stance, but perhaps keeping my head up a little more and both eyes open.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Better then most, but not as good as some...

 

[zb338]

Shooting at ten yards sounds very challenging. (ha ha)

Zeke

 

[strambo]

I thought it was perhaps an medulla oblongata shot for a (hopefully) instant lights out, no reflexive movement kill. I don't imagine it staying inside the body.

On the original topic, I think there is more value hitting multiple spots when firing. Rather than "one hole" which you can only destroy so much.

I ignore the sights completely for a fast close shot like these. I still use the same grip and 2 hand stance, but perhaps keeping my head up a little more and both eyes open.

Chin/throat area is too low for the medulla. The aim point for the medulla from the front is just under the nose and above the lip. The entire brain stem area (medulla, mid brain, Pons) from the front is the triangle made by the point being the upper lip up to the eyes.

 

[Tallball]

A squirrel running along a tree branch at 25 yards, behind the shoulder, right where I was aiming.

Targets that hold still just aren't the same.

 

[walnut1704]

Those that have fired many tens of thousands of rounds would think that standard pretty low I think, but the author says a lot more....

"I’d make a small bet the majority of handgun shooters couldn’t do it. I’d also bet the majority of their handguns aren’t sighted well enough to hit center even if they did everything right. No … really."

From what I see at the range I think he's probably right. I don't quite agree with the 100%. Whatever standard you set I think anything over 95% is good. I mean if you hit your standard 5,000 times in a row and then have an errant round, are you suddenly not competent? But I am picking nits.

He sounds like he's just talking about standing slow-fire. It also depends on what you're shooting of course. There's a big difference between a K-38 with wadcutters and a Kel-Tec. Each class of gun should have it's own standard depending on it's configuration and how you want to use it.

Here's the whole article: http://americanhandgunner.com/simple-is-not-always-easy/