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So it goes before a grand jury

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Thernlund, May 28, 2008.

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  1. Sans Authoritas

    Sans Authoritas member

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    Taurus, perhaps the homeowner shot not because he "didn't want to get caught," but because a gang of black-clad men were trying to knock down his door?

    As others mentioned, I don't think we're getting the full story at all here. The prosecutor said the societal protectors announced themselves loudly four times, yet, all of a sudden, after the pot policeman was shot, they called "8-ball," to indicate that "that the individual inside the house knew of the raid."


    -Sans Authoritas
     
  2. ProficientRifleman

    ProficientRifleman Member

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    Give it a rest!

    People...Jeez!!!

    Submit! Comply! Be Passive!

    Government is YOUR Daddy! The police are your big brother. Daddy has appointed big brother to watch out for you and make sure you don't hurt yourselves!

    The Cops are always right! Would you hippie, commie, dope smokin', lefty-leanin', Ho Chi Mihn worshipin' poor lil victims come to that realization...please???

    If the cops are pursuing you, you are guilty! If you defend yourself in that pursuit, you deserve to get fried! If you get arrested, you are as good as convicted, so just own up to it!

    The Cops are always right! Even if they bust down your door, shoot your dog, terrorize your wife and children, ruin your reputation with your neighbors, and burn down your house after having run you over with a tank and call it a suicide....

    You deserved it because you had something, which might have been construed by any reasonable Cop to be a marijuana plant, in your home. Even if it wasn't a marijuana plant, if the Cops suspected it was, then all of the above was the right thing to do!

    You can only make it worse for yourself if you attempt to do such a dastardly thing as assert your rights...or God forbid, defend your home!

    Just get over it! You are guilty as accused and if the cops bust down your door, YOU DESERVE IT!

    It must have been the right thing to do...cuz it was the Cops what dunnit!
     
  3. Triphammer

    Triphammer Member

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  4. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Take a gander at my post on this very topic back in March.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4319844&postcount=112

    See here: http://www.reason.com/news/show/125538.html

    And the now closed thread on this very topic.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=349516

    This still smells of a plant job (no pun intended) by the coppers who got one of their own killed due to their own incompetence.

    Indeed.
     
  5. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

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    So much for "know your target" eh? I guess wildly discharging rounds in a residential area at persons unknown is A OK as long as you're feeling defensive?

    It's either a case of mistaken identity or it's not. If it is, him shooting at the police thinking they were bad guys is no different from you accidentally shooting your brother in law who happened to come by to borrow something. Not identifying your target is unacceptable.

    And if he new they were cops, he's a murderer.

    Owning a house does not make it a free fire zone for you.
     
  6. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    most of the dealers i know/knew would be justifyably nervous lots of em get robbed and hurt in that peacful harmless trade and calling the cops isn't a good option they are ussually fairly shocked when it happens to them
     
  7. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Since "your brother in law" wouldn't be screaming and kicking in the front door if he just dropped by to borrow something, it's VERY different indeed.

    There's a huge difference in shooting someone accidentally because you failed to identify your target and intentionally shooting someone (whose identity you can't confirm) because they are breaking down your front door.
    Nope. But that's not what happened either.

    Let's adjust that sentence to better reflect reality.

    "I guess wildly discharging rounds in a residential area at persons unknown who are in the process of forcibly entering your house?"

    That's perfectly legal in many states including mine.

    On the other hand, if he KNEW they were police then they're no longer "persons unknown" and he's in a lot of trouble.
     
  8. ProficientRifleman

    ProficientRifleman Member

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    Hmmmm, maybe here is where the "knock and announce" concept comes into play.

    There was once, long, long ago, a saying, that a man's home was his castle. That would imply all rights and privileges thereto.
     
  9. Eric F

    Eric F Member

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    As to this maple article I have done some internet searching and can find nothing absolutly nothing. Does not seem likely or credible to me. I have several growing in my yard this is why I have asked. None of them ever resembeled pot.

    I do not deny that errors have not been made throughout this entire event from both parties. I would be more sympathetic to Frederick if the cops found nothing at all. Illegal drugs are still illegal drugs. An arest warent served in this mannor does not justify the amount found and with the lack of printed evidence as to the small pot plants I mentioned also seems suspect. I did see it on the air at the 11:00 news cast. I feel like there is an effort to cover this up and aparently for little or no reason.

    I submit that Frederick did commit a crime I have done a search from the crime line and found nothing about a break in at his address did he not report it and if not why? Was he hiding something? If he did report it where did the report go and who deleted it? My stolen bicycle is still on there from 3 years ago.........more suspect activity and more unanswered questions.

    Also I might add and I have no time to look now that there is some sort of law in Va about using deadly force and a blind shoot through a door is curently ruled as a no no. I will look more tomorrow on that.
     
  10. Knotthead

    Knotthead Member

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    I haven't finished reading all of the posts in this thread yet, but isn't this the incident where the marijuana plants turned out to be Japanese Maples?

    Edited to add: Gee, if only I'd read two more posts first.
     
  11. Ash

    Ash Member

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    If the police announce themselves and you refuse to open up, then they start to force entry and you shoot through the door, you should be convicted of murder.

    Ash
     
  12. moga

    moga Member

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    1) I would like to know about the single .223 brass that was found at the scene. The shooter was armed with a 380 IIRC.

    2) What of the testimony of the neighbors that were outside at the time of the raid that heard nothing until the gunshots? They reported that they did NOT hear police announce their presence, and that originally, there were only three officers at the scene at the time the warrant was executed.

    3) The CI is now on the run from police. There was never any further investigation into Frederick before a warrant was issued. No surveillance, no controlled buy, etc. And it appears that the CI and Frederick have a past association and some sort of beef.

    4) The "eight-ball" declaration. As other's have said, why would the serving officer's cover be blown after they knocked and announced four times on Frederick's door before they attempted a breach?

    5) Where was the detective shot? In the yard or at the door? There have been conflicting accounts of his position when he was struck.

    Until some of these details are accounted for, I remain suspicious. It sound to me like Kathryn Johnson all over again.
     
  13. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    The whole thing does sound like a fairly typical coverup of a botched operation. Or it could just be incompetence, or the typical loose ends that always seem to be laying around in most criminal cases. Its not like on TV where everything fits into place nicely and everything makes sense. Probably no one will ever know for sure what really happened.

    The absolute last thing in the world any cop wants is to be videotaped in this kind of situation. I suspect that 90% of the time it would show the cops doing the right thing, and very clearly. Perhaps 5% would be inclusive. And another 5% of the time the recordings would mysteriously disappear.

    At present, they have control of 100% of the evidence. Why would they ever give that up?
     
  14. fletcher

    fletcher Member

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    +1. The reports of announcing, then the raid being compromised, etc. don't add up.


    I'd be in favor of a requirement to record all raids from the time of arrival to departure. This stuff has been out of control for way too long.
     
  15. xjchief

    xjchief Member

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    Yelling "police" doesn't mean the person on the other side of the door hears you. As has been pointed out earlier, your bother-in-law or girl scouts selling cookies don't kick down your door.

    Some of you will use any excuse available or just make up one to justify, in your own mind, this raid and others like it. Obviously the police were wrong- they've got nothing to show for it but this poor detective's death and the incidental discovery of a stash of weed so small it barely rates as a misdemeanor. Hopefully you'll never be the victim of these senseless acts. :scrutiny:
     
  16. Thernlund

    Thernlund Member

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    He knew his target. An attacker bashing through his door.

    Wildly? Hmmm. Seems like he scored a hit doesn't it? Doesn't sound like he rode the thing to slide lock spraying bullets everywhere to do so either.

    If my brother-in-law smashed through my door with a battering ram, he'd get shot too.

    Again, I think he did identify his target. Men smashing his door down. There are no circumstances where that could be interpreted as a friendly visit.

    [SMASH!!!] "Hey neighbor! Can I borrow some sugar?"

    :rolleyes:


    -T.
     
  17. MASTEROFMALICE

    MASTEROFMALICE member

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    He was outside of the house.

    Or it could be that you don't have all the facts because the reporters don't have all the facts. Actually, that IS the situation.

    Never, as in a fireman breaking down your door because your upstairs is on fire is a hostile act? Incidentally, this same scenario is what the Supreme Court used to uphold the law against trap guns.

    Not if you live anywhere in this country it isn't. The standard for lethal force is "reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm"

    If you don't even know who you're shooting at your "reasonable" just disappeared.
     
  18. RP88

    RP88 Member

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    I thought it was funny how they have said several times that he only had enough weed to be charged with a misdemeanor possession charge, yet now they are seeking a felony charge.

    I also read things from several people, reporters, etc. waiting to hear the trial who said that the hearings were moved to other courtrooms or locations without notice. Not once, but several times. looks like there is something they don't want to be known by the people who deliver the news.
     
  19. MakAttak

    MakAttak Member

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    Citations please, I would like to read these.
     
  20. MASTEROFMALICE

    MASTEROFMALICE member

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    Manufacturing is a felony. Growing=manufacturing.
     
  21. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    having a gun there raises ante too

    does that qualify for operation exile
     
  22. Eric F

    Eric F Member

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    Hey folks if I might shed some light on the actual shooting part, Both Fredrick and the officers agree that Fredrick fired a blind shot through the door. If all parties agree to this what difference does it make? You can not be shot through a door if you and the shooter are on the same side of the door. Therefore Frederick clearly took a blind shot.


    I do not think so exile partains to illegal/stolen guns. Illegal in this case being home grown sawed off/full auto/ illegaly modified firearms.

    Also the house is a small house with a 1/2 person front porch and 1 or 2 steps. The fact that some say the officer was shot at the front door and others say he was shot in the yard are inconsequential as they can both be interpreted as the front yard or at the door.
     
  23. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    It actually means nothing, other than the guy breaking down your door is yelling "police". Anyone who can yell can yell "police". It is completely meaningless on its own
     
  24. MASTEROFMALICE

    MASTEROFMALICE member

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    Good point, so perhaps shooting through a door just in case the guy outside is lying isn't the best of plans.
     
  25. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    Back in the mid 1980s when I lived in Fresno, CA two undercover officers were making a drug buy from a known dealer. The dealer got suspicious, not thinking they were cops but rather that they were going to rob him of the drugs he was selling. When one of the cops drew his weapon, the dealer whipped his gun out and shot the officer to death. I'm not sure how he wasn't shot by the dead cop's partner, but he was taken into custody.

    Charged with murder, his defense was that he acted in self-defense. He said that as a drug dealer he was the constant target of armed robbers and believed the cops were thieves who intended to kill him and take his merchandise.

    He was acquitted on the murder charge after a witness who was close enough to overhear the conversation testified that neither officer identified himself before the shooting.

    I'm surprised that "felony murder" wasn't applied. This is when you get charged with murder if someone dies while you are committing a felony. Last year an AR cop was hit and killed by another police car during a pursuit and the fleeing felon was convicted of murder even though he physically had nothing to do with the fatal crash. Maybe felony murder didn't exists that long ago.

    Clearly a tragedy and one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of "storm the castle" tactics. Why not just wait outside until the subject leaves the house and then swarm him?
     
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