So much for "Less than Lethal"... Red Sox Fan Killed by Police Projectile

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There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here.

Crowd control munitions are designed to be fired into the crowd. Not in the general direction of...not with any intent to avoid striking...not in the vicinity of. Into.

Not at a solitary target with intent to strike in a certain bodily location. Into a mass of people with the intent to cause that mass to move, or stop advancing. This is not one torso with a background of non-targets. This is a moving wall of targets. If you're in the riot, you're a target.

Crowd control munitions hit people. They cause injury. They can cause serious injury. They can cause death.

Everyone assumes that the weapon was used improperly if it struck someone in the face and killed him. I'm telling you that even if used 100% correctly, it can strike someone in the face and kill him. This is why the usage of crowd control munitions is not taken lightly. They're NOT non-lethal. They're properly labled as less-lethal. They can kill.

Now, That Said, the specific weapon used can and will have a proper method of use. Was it followed? I dunno. But the point is that the mere fact that someone took a headshot and died is not an indication of poor training, poor weapon design, or poor tactics. Could these be a factor? Yes. The investigation will determine which of these, if any, had what effect.

If any of us had done this we would be charged.

Yes, you would. If a cop did this in any situation where the use of crowd control munitions was not indicated or approved, so would he. A riot is a unique event. The police have the authority to order a street cleared of all persons. They have the authority to use force to accomplish this goal. They have the authority to shoot projectiles into a mass of people in order to achieve this goal.

Those projectiles, in modern times, are designed to do as little damage to the rioters as possible, but they can and will cause injury still. Back in the Good Old Days, the cops just used bayonets. Or rifle fire. Or truncheons. Or dogs.

It was reported he was shooting at head height instead of the chest which is the recommended procedure.
If this is the case, we have a wonderful case for civil liability. Time will tell.

Mike
 
Let me help, Bismuth is used as a non toxic substitute for lead shot in shotgun rounds.

Try this...

In particular,
"Does Bismuth perform like lead shot?
YES. Bismuth shot’s performance is very similar to lead. Learning to shoot a moving target is a process of memorization of “sight pictures.†Since Bismuth’s performance is so similar to lead, it allows you to use your normal sight pictures for a more natural and accurate shooting experience."

So everytime you shoot somebody with these rounds, you spraying very fine shot in every direction. The directly-in-the-eye-thing may have been a freak accident, but if these rounds are designed to split open on impact, and have shot in the nose of the projectile, there's a problem here. It's a miracle that they haven't put someones eye out before this. Think about it.
 
I am bit suprised it doesnt sound like the pepperball rounds I have seen that are basicly paintballs with shell designed to break on contact and release pepper powder instead of paint. I dont doubt a paintball close range within 10 feet could do some damage but death with 1 shot. for some reason I believe the round was a rubber bullet from shotgun. now I know when those things hit a person in the head it can cause death.

did she have pepper allergy or missing piece of her skull that could possibly explain more.

doubt the officer that fired it will see any trouble. lawsuit on the other hand will probably be easy.
 
Oh, to address another legal point, if you are a willing participant (i.e. didn't get the heck out/away at the first sign of communal wrongdoing) in a group of people, some of whom are committing a crime, you are as liable as any other member of that group for the consequences.

If you are, say, part of a mob of people that is attacking a person and deadly force is justified against any particular member of the group, it is also justified against you.

Less-than-lethal situations would work similarly.

Rule of thumb: Stay out of rioting mobs.
 
Coronach has already said what I would have. There isn't enough information to hang the officer.

No "less lethal" is as accurate as real firearm (think cheap paintball gun or worse).

Officers almost never get a chance to practice with them. If they are lucky, they may get to shoot the once or twice one time every year. Many departments only train with them once ever!

The sights on these things are very, very basic for the most part. They are not intended to be precision weapons.

There is a very good possibility this officer could have done everything right. He could have been firing at a firing a specific bottle throwing rioter. These things operate at less than 300fps. The targeted person could have moved, ducked, fell, been knocked down. The officers' appear to have been using the flip up sights (crude is being kind) and the weapon itself is hardly what I would call accurate. He could have out right missed. It was night and the officer was in the middle of a mob that would do him harm if they got the opportunity. How many of you have tried to shoot under these circumstances? Less than lethals are made to be employed in these situations. They are made to reduce risk to nearby people should the inevitable occur and the shooter miss his target (Coronach was right about less than lethals being intended for targeting crowds. A target could be a group of violent instigators

If the cop that fired the projectile was not following department procedure regarding how the weapon was to be used, he should be fired and held responsible in court. If he wasn't following the law as it applies to use of force, he should face criminal charges.

I don’t have much pity for people that participate in “sports riotsâ€. If the young woman was doing her best to get away from the situation and wasn’t able, her death is regretable. I feel for her family and the officer and his family regardless.

I hope this ungainly missive is semicoherent. I'm tired and I'm begining to have my doubts.


David
 
carebear,

what you describe is the old Riot Act, in force in the UK since god-knows-when and only replaced in 1988 (though it had been unused before then).

Basically the law said that a magistrate had to stand in front of the crowd (or where the crowd could hear him) and read a legal notice informing the crowd that if they didnt disperse force would be used. If they then refused to disperse, no officer (police and military) could be held liable for any assaults during the disturbance after the notice had been read - ie: the gloves were well and truly off.

Needless to say, during the hayday of its usage during the 19th century shots were fired into crowds with far greater abandon than today, and there have been serious calls - after the 1981 Brixton riots, the 1985 Broadwater Farm riot in which a policeman was hacked to death, and the Poll Tax riot of 1990 - for it to be brought back. It wont - its far too strong a piece of legislation - but I would say that anyone who has been on the recieving end of a bunch of losers throwing bricks, petrol bombs, paving slabs, bottles filled with urine, scaffolding poles etc would be at least a bit in favour.
 
You can blame the girl's death on an inaccurate weapon, poor sights, lack of training with the weapon, improper use of the weapon, etc.

The fact is, all of these potential reasons fall back onto the responsibility of the manufacturer, the Boston PD, or the individual officer. The liablity, no matter which of these things actually caused the problem, remains in their hands.

Although these pepperballs are officially considered "less lethal", I suspect that the officer firing the round was actually expecting it to be "non lethal. I doubt he was trying to kill anyone. When the police department bought this weapon, they understood that while it was officially considered "less lethal", they really wanted to use it in "non lethal" ways.

From the descriptions of the story I have read, this girl may not have even been in the mob the police were dealing with. She was standing by a sausage cart a short distance away, but it doesnt sound like she was participating in any mob activity.

The bottom line is, a girl, perhaps an innocent bystander, is dead after a police officer pulled a trigger. The manufacturer, City of Boston, and the officer are responsible.
 
Lone_Gunman, my problem with your reasoning is that police don't show up if there's no no call for them, no need for them to stop criminal behavior.

So there's the admittedly riotous behavior: Among other things, the torching of an SUV with NY license plates.

Now, the cops don't want to start machine-gunning the crowd, right? The public at large, for over 30 years that I can recall, has yowled and howled about equipping the cops with "non-lethal" weaponry. Stun-guns, tear gas, bean-bag shotgun rounds...(There's also been the esoteric stuff, like gas which when inhaled lowers your blood pressure such that ya gotta sit down, and slippery-stuff foam that when sprayed on the pavement reduces friction so you can't even reliably stand up.)

So many LEO crowd control tools exist which won't break bones or poke holes in my tender body. And the public at large sez, "That Is Good."

But we all know this isn't a perfect world, and not everything works exactly as intended by either the manufacturer or the user. That's a fact of life that we're stuck with.

And this flawed tool wouldn't have been used at all except that a bunch of idiots created a situation that led to the tragedy.

Me? I blame the drunken fools who were doing violence. They started the trouble. Those who initiate trouble are responsible for the consequences thereof.

And, by the way, as Jeff Cooper has commented, the notion of "innocent bystander" implies that there is also a "guilty bystander". :)

Art
 
From today's Boston Globe
The police commissioner said the type of weapon that fired the fatal shot was an FN303, a compressed-air gun that fires pellets filled with pepper powder. It was the first time Boston police had used the weapons since buying them for this summer's Democratic National Convention. State Police also deployed the guns at other locations throughout the state Wednesday night.

A spokesman for the weapon's manufacturer, FN Herstal, confirmed yesterday that his firm sold the Boston Police pepper weapon technology for the convention security effort. However, Richard DeMilt would not comment on Snelgrove's death, saying, ''We have not been notified by any officials from Boston police about what role our weapons played."
 
You can blame the girl's death on an inaccurate weapon, poor sights, lack of training with the weapon, improper use of the weapon, etc.

The fact is, all of these potential reasons fall back onto the responsibility of the manufacturer, the Boston PD, or the individual officer. The liablity, no matter which of these things actually caused the problem, remains in their hands.
Certainly the weapon could have been used improperly. Less likely, though possible, is the idea that it could be poorly designed. I'm not familiar with the weapon or BPD's training.

Also possible (and in my mind quite likely) is that it was used properly and it still killed her.
Although these pepperballs are officially considered "less lethal", I suspect that the officer firing the round was actually expecting it to be "non lethal. I doubt he was trying to kill anyone. When the police department bought this weapon, they understood that while it was officially considered "less lethal", they really wanted to use it in "non lethal" ways.
A distinction without a difference. I'm quite certain that the individual officer was trained that the rounds can kill and must be used in a proper way. I think the biggest potential for liability is for the officer to have been using it improperly.
From the descriptions of the story I have read, this girl may not have even been in the mob the police were dealing with. She was standing by a sausage cart a short distance away, but it doesnt sound like she was participating in any mob activity.
I don't think anyone is saying that she did anything besides fail to disperse. Certainly no one is saying that she deserved to be struck with a pepperball round, much less be killed by one. The general point I am trying to make is that once these rounds get fired, if you linger in the general area you could be struck by one. Obey the law. Move. Don't place yourself at risk.
The bottom line is, a girl, perhaps an innocent bystander, is dead after a police officer pulled a trigger. The manufacturer, City of Boston, and the officer are responsible.
Responsible in the sense that they fired the round. A round that is designed to be fired into a crowd. A round that then struck someone in the crowd.

I see and understand your point. My point is that everything could have been done preoperly, from the manufacturer, to the trainer, to the individual officer, and she still could be dead. They are less-lethal, not certified Nerf.

Again, it is an utter tragedy. Did she deserve to die? HECK NO. How could her life have been saved?

1. The Yankees could have pulled out game 7. (thats my vote)
2. The Sox Fans could have behaved themselves.
3. She could have left the area when required to do so.

There is a possibility #4, and that is an assumption that the weapon was misused. It might have been, but only time will tell.

Mike
 
Art and Coronach, I generally agree with your statements above. I feel bad for the officer, I don't think he meant to kill her. I feel bad for the girl, I am not sure she even realized she should have dispersed.

I think the notion of "less lethal" gives people a false sense of security. Yes, the company can be officially on record as saying this thing can kill you, but we all know that was not the intention. They call it "less lethal" so they have a defense in court when something like this happens, but the intention of the weapon is to be non-lethal, no matter what the fine print in the package says.

Police have a tough job. They have to make tough calls. Living with the consequences has to be heck.
 
Art Eatman
Me? I blame the drunken fools who were doing violence. They started the trouble. Those who initiate trouble are responsible for the consequences thereof.
What happened to being responsible for every round you fire? I might as well switch my HD shotgun loadout to slugs because if any of my neighbors are injured or killed it'll be the burglar's fault, right?

Coronach
A round that is designed to be fired into a crowd.
No, a round that is designed to be fired at an individual. Even Pepperballs (a less dangerous round) aren't safe enough to be to fired into a crowd.
There is a possibility #4, and that is an assumption that the weapon was misused. It might have been, but only time will tell.
The fact that she was shot in the face means that something went wrong. Whether it was a training issue or officer incompetence will take time to tell (if such information is ever publicly released).

The Boston Globe piece cited above has a much more damaging quote.
A tactical response unit officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that only a handful of officers in the unit have received training with the weapons.
 
Does anyone really blame the cops in the LA riots for not going in? I do not. I think there's a point in shtf scenarios that even the police can be expected to do the smart thing and watch out for themselves. Every man for himself. Wading in to a riot with a uniform on is asking for trouble. JMO.

Not that it has anything to do with this scenario, dunno how bad it was on the street.
 
People keep referring to it as a pepperball. It's not. FN's own website refers to it as an impact weapon.
"The primary effect of the projectile is trauma, which directly neutralizes the aggressor. In addition, secondary effects from the projectiles can be delivered via a chemical payload depending on mission requirements."

Half the volume, and three quarters of the weight of the projectile is "granular Bismuth", which as we all know, is a non toxic substitute for lead. Only it's not contained like the shot in a beanbag, it's just in a plastic shell that splits on impact. That has the potential for problems. That's why beanbag manufacturers are so proud of the fabrics they use, and the quality of their seams. spraying little bits of metal around is a bad thing, particularly, it appears inside an eyesocket...
 
The old riot control training was to fix bayonets and walk shoulder to shoulder toward a crowd with longarms leveled at them. Shooting with the longarm was the expected response to shots or thrown objects from the crowd.

Then there's the shots we see from the '60's, of cops with riot sticks wailing on whomever they could catch. A lot of people died or were critically wounded from that style of riot response, too.

So now we've got a response toolbox that includes Pepperball guns, beanbag rounds, 37mm launchers, rubber slugs, rubber buckshot, rubber bullets, aerosol sprayers, CS grenades, tasers....

and people feel that the response is still to much.


Okay.


But I wonder how many people are annually killed by thrown objects like bottles? How many would have been injured or killed if they had gone unchecked with their signs and trees wielded, and bottles thrown and fires lit?

Raise your hand if you would seriously have thought that a Pepperball could/would ever cause a death by hitting someone in the eye. (Uh, mine's down.)

Now think: You're a cop, just trying to stop the riot as quickly as possible, who is trying his damndest not to kill anyone or get killed or hurt, who is very aware of the liability of using force on the citizenry. You've read the literature listed above. You're confronted with a wall of unruly people. Are you going to be really happy you've got a pepperball gun on you, so that you don't have to reenact Kent State with your firearm? Yer damn skippy.

Her death was a terrible thing to have happened. But it was definitely less likely to have occured in October 2004 than in October 1964 or October 1934.
 
In case you guys were not sure, these are pictures of ACTUAL fired bullets from the riot (my buddy was standing right next to the girl who got shot).

IMG_3986.jpg

IMG_3987.jpg

IMG_3988.jpg


I was lucky enough to see that stuff was going down, and left when i saw it get dangerous. Right when i got back to my dorm, I saw the police attacking Kenmore Square.

As for my opinion, based on the actions of the crowd, force was justified, but perhaps not firing potentially lethal rounds into teh crowd. A few smacks with a batton most likely would have been just as effective, and not left this girl dead.
 
CannibalCrowley asks, "What happened to being responsible for every round you fire? I might as well switch my HD shotgun loadout to slugs because if any of my neighbors are injured or killed it'll be the burglar's fault, right?"

IMO, a bit of a cavalier use of the word "responsible". The burglarly analogy is bad, in that when one's in dire fear of dying one behaves differently than when one is "merely" trying to restore order. If you're not in dire fear, why use a weapon certain to be lethal?

And all this is from news-stuff and the usual "reliable" witnesses:

If the drunks hadn't gotten way wrong, the cops wouldn't have been there at all. It it hadn't appeared to the officer that the use of the weapon was necessary, the shot wouldn't have been fired. If the shot's aim had been better the tragedy wouldn't have occurred. An obvious question to me is why was the shot fired high instead of center-body or legs? Until I've heard/read that particular cop's story about whys and wherefores, I don't figure I really know all that much about the deal.

I dunno. I sorta want to back away and look at the larger picture: "The system" seems to want to use the newest toy that's alleged to be better than previous methods. I'm talking about those who control the money for police equipment and training. Seems to me the average street cop is gonna go with the methodology the bosses teach him. That's the way most people operate, whether we're being engineers or accountants or shooting in IPSC/IDPA competition.

Projectile weaponry of whatever sort, plus adrenalin, can get us back to that ol' debbil, "Unintended Consequences".

The more I read about these sorts of events, whether sports riots or G7 protests or whatever, the more I think that maybe no projectile weapons oughta be involved, other than LEOs' personal weapons for their actual self-defense. Maybe stay with tear gas and pepper spray, maybe using some sort of low-power grenade-type device.

Damfino,

Art
 
Matt G
and people feel that the response is still to much.
The response itself was not too much, the reckless way it was applied was wrong.
Raise your hand if you would seriously have thought that a Pepperball could/would ever cause a death by hitting someone in the eye. (Uh, mine's down.)
That would apply only if the cop was shooting Pepperballs, but he was using an FN303. They are two very different systems and the FN303 is much more lethal than Pepperballs.

Keaner
As for my opinion, based on the actions of the crowd, force was justified, but perhaps not firing potentially lethal rounds into teh crowd. A few smacks with a batton most likely would have been just as effective, and not left this girl dead.
Or they could have just fired into the torsos of the main troublemakers like they're supposed to.
 
It would appear that the nose stays intact, that would allay most of my concerns, but it's still an impact weapon, not an OC round.

Thanks for posting the pics Keaner!
 
Yes, the company can be officially on record as saying this thing can kill you, but we all know that was not the intention. They call it "less lethal" so they have a defense in court when something like this happens, but the intention of the weapon is to be non-lethal, no matter what the fine print in the package says.
Well...yeah. Is this, somehow, a bad thing? The weapons designer does everything in his power to make it unlikely to cause fatal trauma.

I understand your bit about 'false sense of security' but, if their training is anything like ours, it is stressed very very plainly to everyone, from the trigger puller on up to the commander at the scene, that these puppies can kill. Naturally, BPD's training will be called into question. And that's not a bad thing when someone has died.
What happened to being responsible for every round you fire? I might as well switch my HD shotgun loadout to slugs because if any of my neighbors are injured or killed it'll be the burglar's fault, right?
Apples and oranges, first of all.

Second of all, this was a crowd control ordnance used against a crowd. If it was used improperly, there is an argument here. If it was not, it was a round that was fired into a crowd that struck someone in the crowd. Not to be utterly cold-hearted, but...whats the issue?

I mean, lets examine this argument. The use a firearm against a valid target can be a poor idea if your backstop is a crowd of innocent people.

Lethal Force + Non-Target backdrop = Bad Idea.

This is less-lethal round designed to be fired into a crowd.

The Target is the crowd. Preferably an agitator, but the target is the crowd.

The backdrop is also, yes, the crowd.

Less-lethal round + targetable backdrop = Good Shoot.

This assumes the weapon was employed correctly!

If anyone is really saying that you cannot deploy a crowd-control munition unless you are absolutely certain that the only person targeted is a brick-and-bottle thrower and that no one else is possibly in the way of the shot, what they are really saying is that crowd control munitions can never ever be employed...because there are always other people in the way. Its a riot. If there were no other people there, the entire situation could be resolved differently.

No, a round that is designed to be fired at an individual. Even Pepperballs (a less dangerous round) aren't safe enough to be to fired into a crowd.
As I said, your argument then is that there is no valid form of crowd control besides batons and sprays. Frankly? I disagree with this argument.
The fact that she was shot in the face means that something went wrong. Whether it was a training issue or officer incompetence will take time to tell (if such information is ever publicly released).
And I'm telling you that it could also be freak chance. Of course, I will also admit that it could be a training issue or a failure to follow that training. And the investigation's results should be public record. Certainly they'll be brought up at the inevitable trial.

The Boston Globe piece cited above has a much more damaging quote.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A tactical response unit officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that only a handful of officers in the unit have received training with the weapons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three possibilities:

1. The quote is true and correct and is extremely damning.
2. The quote is true and correct, but only the officers who have had the training were issued the weapons (possible...we have tasers now, but not all officers have had the training. Don't have the training, can't carry the weapon)
3. The quote is not an accurate reflection of the situation.

Time will tell. Certainly the training will be a public issue at trial, if not well before.

People keep referring to it as a pepperball. It's not. FN's own website refers to it as an impact weapon.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The primary effect of the projectile is trauma, which directly neutralizes the aggressor. In addition, secondary effects from the projectiles can be delivered via a chemical payload depending on mission requirements."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Half the volume, and three quarters of the weight of the projectile is "granular Bismuth", which as we all know, is a non toxic substitute for lead. Only it's not contained like the shot in a beanbag, it's just in a plastic shell that splits on impact. That has the potential for problems. That's why beanbag manufacturers are so proud of the fabrics they use, and the quality of their seams. spraying little bits of metal around is a bad thing, particularly, it appears inside an eyesocket...
In case you guys were not sure, these are pictures of ACTUAL fired bullets from the riot (my buddy was standing right next to the girl who got shot).
Thank you. That does appear to be the FN's projectile. What is it properly called?

Also, the granular nature of the bismuth might be a problem in general, but thats not what caused the fatality here. It was, seemingly, sheer blunt trauma.
I was lucky enough to see that stuff was going down, and left when i saw it get dangerous. Right when i got back to my dorm, I saw the police attacking Kenmore Square.

As for my opinion, based on the actions of the crowd, force was justified, but perhaps not firing potentially lethal rounds into teh crowd.
Thats the thing...everything that works is potentially lethal. The question becomes how to best attenuate that possibility.
A few smacks with a batton most likely would have been just as effective, and not left this girl dead.
In this I will disagree completely. Hand to hand melee is the way it used to be done, and it caused a lot more injuries and a lot more deaths.

Mike
 
Now that we have an idea what was used, and what happened, based on all this information, we can start to look at the complicated stuff.

At my agency, like many others, an specialty impact round, whether it be 40mm, 12 gauge, or anything else is considered to be below lethal force, equivalent to being struck with a baton. Obviously, if bottles were being throw, then specialty impact projectiles would have been justified anyplace that has a continuum similar to ours. Some other agencies consider specialty impact rounds as the equivalent of lethal force.

So the next question is, where does Boston's force continuum place beanbags and other specialty impact projectiles? Is the FN303 in the same place as other specialty impact projectiles?
 
I'm afraid I cannot express my true feelings without offending Art's Grandma, but if that had been my daughter I would devote the rest of my life to making that officers' existence on this planet as legally miserable - to say nothing of financially poor, as humanly possible. Apologies be darned. :fire:
 
For the most part, the people in the riot were just there to cheer. From what I saw, only a few dozen trouble makers existed. And yes, there were many billigerent drunks as well, but none that couldnt be scared away.

I realize that Hindsight is 20/20 and such, and for the most parts, do not damn the officers for taking what at the time was most likely a correct action. As far as hitting the girl in the head, I would believe that it was a cause of horrible aim.

I take this from the cops I've seen that take shooting practice at my school's range every month or so (apparently to meet some kind of quota of shots fired per month). Some of these officers are quite good, dont get me wrong, but a bunch are just horrible shots.

I would trust that the officers on this board are good shots, but I've seen many 9mm bullet holes in the baffled roof and walls from the officers, whereas the school's pistol club and rifle team rarely puts anything outside of the paper.

I wouldnt be surprised if the officer in question had never shot the firearm before, or if he had, not nearly often enough.

That being said, i think if they did the "wall march" and just walked toward the students, and more than lightly tapped the students that got close (like they did the other 3 days of rioting), that most of the crowd would have dispersed fairly quickly.

The first 3 riots were split up really quickly while I was there, the police game in full riot gear, walked into the crowd, and gave the students a somewhat light smack to the torso with the batton. I wasnt there during the championship riot, but Perhaps that would have been a better first step?

Let me know what you guys think!
 
I'm afraid I cannot express my true feelings without offending Art's Grandma, but if that had been my daughter I would devote the rest of my life to making that officers' existence on this planet as legally miserable - to say nothing of financially poor, as humanly possible. Apologies be darned.

Interesting you choose to blame the officer. The man doing his job and was forced to be there due to the actions of drunken, reckless, and violent sports fans who were rioting over a GAME. Also interesting that you would not fault your daughter at all for being in the midst of said riot.

To those who keep saying it's "bizarre" to charge the rioters who were throwing bricks and bottles with murder since the poor girl got killed, take a look at most laws that deal with violent crimes. If someone commits armed robbery and in the process someone dies, this could be their own accomplice being killed by a citizen, they get charged with homocide since THEY were the ones that commited the crime which caused the death. This is not a strange or bizarre concept. If someone chooses to break the law they set in motion the events that happen after that and are responsible for the response of the police who are sent to stop the crimes they are committing.

This case was a terrible accident and it happened to someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Did she deserve to die? ABSOLUTELY not. But she wouldn't have if she wasn't in the middle of a riot and those are the facts.
 
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