So....What To do About Iran?

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Manedwolf said:
jfruser said:
Eventually, it will come down to violence. If we act sooner, we will get to jump into it on our terms and at our convenience.

That sounds like Rummy's quote about "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want." That only applies to when you are attacked...not when you start a war. The latter is what caused the end of the Roman Empire to lose unprepared legions they sent up to Europe.

That's why we went into Iraq with old unarmored trucks with canvas tops, and a lot of the uparmoring on them doesn't even reach head level on the troops in the back.

We should act WHEN we have all the proper equipment and number of troops and logistics and strategy in place to ensure that things work out closer to an intended purpose, and not another "Well, gee whiz, how could we know they'd fight back?" debacle like this one.

You might want to gather (and peruse) some English reference books, as my words and Rummy's words carry neither the same meaning nor refer to similar situations.

I'll go into a bit more detail:
"Eventually, it will come down to violence."
This means I expect Iran and the US to be at war in the not too distant future. I base this on thier mullacracy's actions and words. When it comes down to it, we won't allow the nutcases to wipe either Israel or Europe off the map. At some point we might also perceieve the threat to the supply of oil to east asia (where most iranian oil ends up) too great to allow to ferment.

"If we act sooner, we will get to jump into it on our terms and at our convenience."
Choosing the time and place of battle is a great advantage and not to be lightly given up. If we go to battle on our timetable, we will likely sustain fewer casualties, complete the mission more quickly, etc. If we go into battle in reaction to the actions of the mullahs, we lose that advantage.

Manedwolf said:
That sounds like Rummy's quote about "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want." That only applies to when you are attacked...not when you start a war.
You might also want to pick up some history books. Most battles and wars are "come as you are" affairs. The examples abound:
1. We did not have any fighter aeroplanes when we entered WW1. We bought/borrowed some from the English & French.
2. We did not have many/sufficient machine guns for our first few battles in WW1. Again, we used Brit & French MGs (and our boys cursed mightily when we got our own MGs, as they had lesser effective range).
3. We went into our first land combat operations in Africa with POS M3 tanks, an even bigger POS than the Sherman, in that its main gun used an archaic sponson mount. I don't recall it was the Germans who sunk our ships at Pearl Harbor.
4. Any of the dozens of small wars/conflicts from our country's birth fought mostly by the USMC & Navy.

Face it: Rummy was right, especially considering the time it takes to acquire new equipment. Most events that require violent action by our boys occur well within the acquisition cycle of a new weapon system.

If you wait until everything is absolutely perfect and you have 100% of the information you want, you never will act. I think it was Colin Powell who said, "You act when you have 60% of the information you want. To wait any longer is to lose the opportunity."
 
jfruser said:
...Face it: Rummy was right [on going to war with the army you have, vice the army you'd like]...
Rummy isn't the first to make this observation...

Once, during the Siege of Boston, when almost nothing was going right and General Schuyler had written from Albany to bemoan his troubles, Washington had replied that he understood but that "we must bear up against them, and make the best of mankind as they are, since we cannot have them as we wish." It was such resolve and an acceptance of mankind as they were, not as he wished them to be, that continued to carry Washington through. "I will not however despair," he now wrote to Governor William Livingston. [emphasis added]
1776 by David McCullough, page 256
 
RealGun said:
Reading this thread makes it sound like preemptive war has become pretty popular. Of course, all that will change when it becomes George Bush's plan.
I think it's important to remember that America did not start this war. We've been in a low-level conflict for at least 25 years. Osama declared war against us. It is only after 9/11 that we've begun to fight back.

However, George Bush has already begun exploring preemptive nuclear use (note the article's date).
 
I don't doubt that Iran with nuclear weapons would be a disasterous shift in power in that region. A dangerous one at that. I would like, however for ONE of the major news networks to at least mention the fact that Iran will be opening a new Oil Bourse.

An oil bourse, like the one they are creating, is also very destabalizing to the region and the world. Word has it (look into it, don't take my word for it) that this oil exchange will be handled in Euros. Given the massive amounts of US debt and the absolute neccessity for all of the counties in the world to hold US dollars because of the fact that only US dollars can be used to purchase oil (now), this developement could have a potentially huge impact on the US (and world) economy.

I have trouble believing that the Iranian plan to switch a portion of Petrodollar sales to Euro sales does not severaly impact the national security of the United States. The fact is that Iran and the other middle-eastern nations have us in a stranglehold because of our reliance on oil. Without it our society cannot function the way it is accustomed to. "The American way of life is not negotiable," is something we have heard time and again from our government. Some people don't truly understand what this means, I fear.

I find it very suspicious that Iran is opening this Bourse (scheduled for March 2006) at the very time that world attention is becoming more focused on them. Are there equally valid reasons for this? Yes. Should some attention be paid to a potentially equally disruptive move of thiers? IMO yes!

-Shadizar
 
Stratfor (http://www.stratfor.com/) just put out an interesting e-mail alert about Iran's nuclear shenanigans.

GEOPOLITICAL INTELLIGENCE REPORT 01.17.2006

Iran's Redefined Strategy

By George Friedman

The Iranians have broken the International Atomic Energy Agency seals on some of their nuclear facilities. They did this very deliberately and publicly to make certain that everyone knew that Tehran was proceeding with its nuclear program. Prior to this, and in parallel, the Iranians began to -- among other things -- systematically bait the Israelis, threatening to wipe them from the face of the earth.

The question, of course, is what exactly the Iranians are up to. They do not yet have nuclear weapons. The Israelis do. The Iranians have now hinted that (a) they plan to build nuclear weapons and have implied, as clearly as possible without saying it, that (b) they plan to use them against Israel. On the surface, these statements appear to be begging for a pre-emptive strike by Israel. There are many things one might hope for, but a surprise visit from the Israeli air force is not usually one of them. Nevertheless, that is exactly what the Iranians seem to be doing, so we need to sort this out.

There are four possibilities:

1. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, is insane and wants to be attacked because of a bad childhood.

2. The Iranians are engaged in a complex diplomatic maneuver, and this is part of it.

3. The Iranians think they can get nuclear weapons -- and a deterrent to Israel -- before the Israelis attack.

4. The Iranians, actually and rationally, would welcome an Israeli -- or for that matter, American -- air strike.

Let's begin with the insanity issue, just to get it out of the way. One of the ways to avoid thinking seriously about foreign policy is to dismiss as a nutcase anyone who does not behave as you yourself would. As such, he is unpredictable and, while scary, cannot be controlled. You are therefore relieved of the burden of doing anything about him. In foreign policy, it is sometimes useful to appear to be insane, as it is in poker: The less predictable you are, the more power you have -- and insanity is a great tool of unpredictability. Some leaders cultivate an aura of insanity.

However, people who climb to the leadership of nations containing many millions of people must be highly disciplined, with insight into others and the ability to plan carefully. Lunatics rarely have those characteristics. Certainly, there have been sociopaths -- like Hitler -- but at the same time, he was a very able, insightful, meticulous man. He might have been crazy, but dismissing him because he was crazy -- as many did -- was a massive mistake. Moreover, leaders do not rise alone. They are surrounded by other ambitious people. In the case of Ahmadinejad, he is answerable to others above him (in this case, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei), alongside him and below him. He did not get to where he is by being nuts -- and even if we think what he says is insane, it clearly doesn't strike the rest of his audience as insane. Thinking of him as insane is neither helpful nor clarifying.

The Three-Player Game

So what is happening?

First, the Iranians obviously are responding to the Americans. Tehran's position in Iraq is not what the Iranians had hoped it would be. U.S. maneuvers with the Sunnis in Iraq and the behavior of Iraqi Shiite leaders clearly have created a situation in which the outcome will not be the creation of an Iranian satellite state. At best, Iraq will be influenced by Iran or neutral. At worst, it will drift back into opposition to Iran -- which has been Iraq's traditional geopolitical position. This is not satisfactory. Iran's Iraq policy has not failed, but it is not the outcome Tehran dreamt of in 2003.

There is a much larger issue. The United States has managed its position in Iraq -- to the extent that it has been managed -- by manipulating the Sunni-Shiite fault line in the Muslim world. In the same way that Richard Nixon manipulated the Sino-Soviet split, the fundamental fault line in the Communist world, to keep the Soviets contained and off-balance late in the Vietnam War, so the Bush administration has used the primordial fault line in the Islamic world, the Sunni-Shiite split, to manipulate the situation in Iraq.

Washington did this on a broader scale as well. Having enticed Iran with new opportunities -- both for Iran as a nation and as the leading Shiite power in a post-Saddam world -- the administration turned to Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia and enticed them into accommodation with the United States by allowing them to consider the consequences of an ascended Iran under canopy of a relationship with the United States. Washington used that vision of Iran to gain leverage in Saudi Arabia. The United States has been moving back and forth between Sunnis and Shia since the invasion of Afghanistan, when it obtained Iranian support for operations in Afghanistan's Shiite regions. Each side was using the other. The United States, however, attained the strategic goal of any three-player game: It became the swing player between Sunnis and Shia.

This was not what the Iranians had hoped for.

Reclaiming the Banner

There is yet another dimension to this. In 1979, when the Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini deposed the Shah of Iran, Iran was the center of revolutionary Islamism. It both stood against the United States and positioned itself as the standard-bearer for radical Islamist youth. It was Iran, through its creation, Hezbollah, that pioneered suicide bombings. It championed the principle of revolutionary Islamism against both collaborationist states like Saudi Arabia and secular revolutionaries like Yasser Arafat. It positioned Shi'ism as the protector of the faith and the hope of the future.

In having to defend against Saddam Hussein's Iraq in the 1980s, and the resulting containment battle, Iran became ensnared in a range of necessary but compromising relationships. Recall, if you will, that the Iran-Contra affair revealed not only that the United States used Israel to send weapons to Iran, but also that Iran accepted weapons from Israel. Iran did what it had to in order to survive, but the complexity of its operations led to serious compromises. By the late 1990s, Iran had lost any pretense of revolutionary primacy in the Islamic world. It had been flanked by the Sunni Wahhabi movement, al Qaeda.

The Iranians always saw al Qaeda as an outgrowth of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and therefore, through Shiite and Iranian eyes, never trusted it. Iran certainly didn't want al Qaeda to usurp the position of primary challenger to the West. Under any circumstances, it did not want al Qaeda to flourish. It was caught in a challenge. First, it had to reduce al Qaeda's influence, or concede that the Sunnis had taken the banner from Khomeini's revolution. Second, Iran had to reclaim its place. Third, it had to do this without undermining its geopolitical interests.

Tehran spent the time from 2003 through 2005 maximizing what it could from the Iraq situation. It also quietly participated in the reduction of al Qaeda's network and global reach. In doing so, it appeared to much of the Islamic world as clever and capable, but not particularly principled. Tehran's clear willingness to collaborate on some level with the United States in Afghanistan, in Iraq and in the war on al Qaeda made it appear as collaborationist as it had accused the Kuwaitis or Saudis of being in the past. By the end of 2005, Iran had secured its western frontier as well as it could, had achieved what influence it could in Baghdad, had seen al Qaeda weakened. It was time for the next phase. It had to reclaim its position as the leader of the Islamic revolutionary movement for itself and for Shi'ism.

Thus, the selection of the new president was, in retrospect, carefully engineered. After President Mohammed Khatami's term, all moderates were excluded from the electoral process by decree, and the election came down to a struggle between former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani -- an heir to Khomeini's tradition, but also an heir to the tactical pragmatism of the 1980s and 1990s -- and Ahmadinejad, the clearest descendent of the Khomeini revolution that there was in Iran, and someone who in many ways had avoided the worst taints of compromise.

Ahmadinejad was set loose to reclaim Iran's position in the Muslim world. Since Iran had collaborated with Israel during the 1980s, and since Iranian money in Lebanon had mingled with Israeli money, the first thing he had to do was to reassert Iran's anti-Zionist credentials. He did that by threatening Israel's existence and denying the Holocaust. Whether he believed what he was saying is immaterial. Ahmadinejad used the Holocaust issue to do two things: First, he established himself as intellectually both anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish, taking the far flank among Islamic leaders; and second, he signaled a massive breach with Khatami's approach.

Khatami was focused on splitting the Western world by dividing the Americans from the Europeans. In carrying out this policy, he had to manipulate the Europeans. The Europeans were always open to the claim that the Americans were being rigid and were delighted to serve the role of sophisticated mediator. Khatami used the Europeans' vanity brilliantly, sucking them into endless discussions and turning the Iran situation into a problem the Europeans were having with the United States.

But Tehran paid a price for this in the Muslim world. In drawing close to the Europeans, the Iranians simply appeared to be up to their old game of unprincipled realpolitik with people -- Europeans -- who were no better than the Americans. The Europeans were simply Americans who were weaker. Ahmadinejad could not carry out his strategy of flanking the Wahhabis and still continue the minuet with Europe. So he ended Khatami's game with a bang, with a massive diatribe on the Holocaust and by arguing that if there had been one, the Europeans bore the blame. That froze Germany out of any further dealings with Tehran, and even the French had to back off. Iran's stock in the Islamic world started to rise.

The Nuclear Gambit

The second phase was for Iran to very publicly resume -- or very publicly claim to be resuming -- development of a nuclear weapon. This signaled three things:

1. Iran's policy of accommodation with the West was over.

2. Iran intended to get a nuclear weapon in order to become the only real challenge to Israel and, not incidentally, a regional power that Sunni states would have to deal with.

3. Iran was prepared to take risks that no other Muslim actor was prepared to take. Al Qaeda was a piker.

The fundamental fact is that Ahmadinejad knows that, except in the case of extreme luck, Iran will not be able to get nuclear weapons. First, building a nuclear device is not the same thing as building a nuclear weapon. A nuclear weapon must be sufficiently small, robust and reliable to deliver to a target. A nuclear device has to sit there and go boom. The key technologies here are not the ones that build a device but the ones that turn a device into a weapon -- and then there is the delivery system to worry about: range, reliability, payload, accuracy. Iran has a way to go.

A lot of countries don't want an Iranian bomb. Israel is one. The United States is another. Throw Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and most of the 'Stans into this, and there are not a lot of supporters for an Iranian bomb. However, there are only two countries that can do something about it. The Israelis don't want to get the grief, but they are the ones who cannot avoid action because they are the most vulnerable if Iran should develop a weapon. The United States doesn't want Israel to strike at Iran, as that would massively complicate the U.S. situation in the region, but it doesn't want to carry out the strike itself either.

This, by the way, is a good place to pause and explain to readers who will write in wondering why the United States will tolerate an Israeli nuclear force but not an Iranian one. The answer is simple. Israel will probably not blow up New York. That's why the United States doesn't mind Israel having nukes and does mind Iran having them. Is that fair? This is power politics, not sharing time in preschool. End of digression.

Intra-Islamic Diplomacy

If the Iranians are seen as getting too close to a weapon, either the United States or Israel will take them out, and there is an outside chance that the facilities could not be taken out with a high degree of assurance unless nukes are used. In the past, our view was that the Iranians would move carefully in using the nukes to gain leverage against the United States. That is no longer clear. Their focus now seems to be not on their traditional diplomacy, but on a more radical, intra-Islamic diplomacy. That means that they might welcome a (survivable) attack by Israel or the United States. It would burnish Iran's credentials as the true martyr and fighter of Islam.

Meanwhile, the Iranians appear to be reaching out to the Sunnis on a number of levels. Muqtada al-Sadr, the leader of a radical Shiite group in Iraq with ties to Iran, visited Saudi Arabia recently. There are contacts between radical Shia and Sunnis in Lebanon as well. The Iranians appear to be engaged in an attempt to create the kind of coalition in the Muslim world that al Qaeda failed to create. From Tehran's point of view, if they get a deliverable nuclear device, that's great -- but if they are attacked by Israel or the United States, that's not a bad outcome either.

In short, the diplomacy that Iran practiced from the beginning of the Iraq-Iran war until after the U.S. invasion of Iraq appears to be ended. Iran is making a play for ownership of revolutionary Islamism on behalf of itself and the Shia. Thus, Tehran will continue to make provocative moves, while hoping to avoid counterstrikes. On the other hand, if there are counterstrikes, the Iranians will probably be able to live with that as well.
 
Shadizar said:
I don't doubt that Iran with nuclear weapons would be a disasterous shift in power in that region. A dangerous one at that. I would like, however for ONE of the major news networks to at least mention the fact that Iran will be opening a new Oil Bourse.

An oil bourse, like the one they are creating, is also very destabalizing to the region and the world. Word has it (look into it, don't take my word for it) that this oil exchange will be handled in Euros. Given the massive amounts of US debt and the absolute neccessity for all of the counties in the world to hold US dollars because of the fact that only US dollars can be used to purchase oil (now), this developement could have a potentially huge impact on the US (and world) economy....
You're exactly right.

The Iranian Bourse is the real reason we'll get into it with Iran. Nuclear proliferation is bad, but as someone earlier here pointed out: We didn't pound Pakistan or India when they got theirs. Mad Mullahs with Nukes are also bad, but it is the macro-economics of the matter which will make us act.

And the reason that the MSM won't cover it is that the public can't be made to understand why these macro-economics matter. [And I don't at all pretend to understand completely either. But neither do I have my head in the sand over it.] The reason that the Iranian Bourse is a problem is that the PetroEuro will be challenging the PetroDollar for preemince as the world's trading currency. Shazidar is right that this matters when speaking of our debt.

Our core problem is that we don't have a money backed by something tangible (typically gold). Instead, we're backed intangibly by "the full faith and credit" of the US--which is wearing pretty thin. The Fed and other central banks have been in a spiral of printing money and deflating their currencies to see which currency will be the last one standing when the whole thing comes crashing down.

But back to the Iranian Bourse...it is interesting to note that Iraq was about to begin trading it's oil in PetroEuros when we finally had had enough and invaded.

Saddam and his support for terrorism were good reasons to invade Iraq. The Iranian Mullahs and their nukes will be a good reason to strike Iran. However, the real reasons are economic.
 
By creating an oil market that trades in petroeuros instead of petrodollars, a market that trades oil from one of the world's final remaining oil fields that is not near peak capacity, the Iranian Boursa will destroy the hegemony of the U.S. dollar. This is what props up our currency in spite of our spiraling national debt. This could prompt countries like China, which hold vast amounts of U.S. currency, to start dumping dollars. The end result could be a massive and immediate deflation of the dollar. Overnight that $3-$4 dollar gallon of gasoline could suddenly cost $8 dollars.

Should this happen, you would see a dramatic shift in the way the world treats us. We'd go from being the whacky big brother to the perverted uncle. Overnight it would become an economically feasible proposition to impose sanctions on us should our behavior not meet world standards. Certainly the world would feel the loss of the U.S. as a consumer giant, but between the rise in value of the Euro and the importance of the emerging markets in China and India, the rest of the world would find consumers to replace the suddenly-impoverished Americans.

Thanks for the informative post, Preacherman. That clarifies the intra-Islamic political piece of the puzzle.
 
Wire check, Pro-load B66 silver bullet, low level, 4 G pull up at IP, 72 degree AJB-3A over the shoulder auto pitch computer release, fuzed 1800 foot baro or rad alt timed. Miller time...........
 
Would someone give me a link to information about this "Iranian Boursa", cuz I'm sitting right now on a bizillion barrels of oil here in the UAE and I have never heard one word about this. This country lifts 2 million barrels a day, (about the same as Iran due to Iran's broken down oil drilling and pumping equipment which they can't get from the US, we make absolutely the best oil equipment, bar none), and could lift double that if they wanted. Oil is the lifeblood of this area, and this is something that would be all over the local news.

All the Gulf currencies are linked to the dollar, these people are so conservative that they won't be changing that link over night. There are other reasons not to change; military contracts, investments, offsets on capital goods purchases from the USA, (oil drilling stuff), and other things that are generally not known to the public.

If it did change, I'd be getting a 40% pay increase. Go Ayatollahs
 
I think its a matter of time before we invade iran.

The best part is that the huge majority of the populace over there wants us to, and they hate the govt that is in place over there.

The bad part:

Huge country, bad terrain, their navy, their jets, drafting of such a large young population...

I'm getting the popcorn out, it'll be a long one...
 
TABING said:
Would someone give me a link to information about this "Iranian Boursa", cuz I'm sitting right now on a bizillion barrels of oil here in the UAE and I have never heard one word about this. This country lifts 2 million barrels a day and could lift double that if they wanted. Oil is the lifeblood of this area, and this is something that would be all over the local news.

Here ya go.

www.321gold.com/editorials/petrov/petrov011706.html

Biker
 
On the economic basis for "Operation Iranian Freedom", this as been pointed to as well.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/discm3.htm
Discontinuance of M3

On March 23, 2006, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System will cease publication of the M3 monetary aggregate. The Board will also cease publishing the following components: large-denomination time deposits, repurchase agreements (RPs), and Eurodollars. The Board will continue to publish institutional money market mutual funds as a memorandum item in this release.

Measures of large-denomination time deposits will continue to be published by the Board in the Flow of Funds Accounts (Z.1 release) on a quarterly basis and in the H.8 release on a weekly basis (for commercial banks).
 
thanks for the article. it was an interesting read.


i'm skeptical about the anticipated effects of iran/china dumping dollars. i'm inclined to think that long-term, it would be good for us. annoying in the short-term, for sure. but not as big an impact in either case as claimed


as for iran, they're playing a very high-stakes game of chicken.


sindawe, as has been discussed before, that is VERY troubling
 
i'm skeptical about the anticipated effects of iran/china dumping dollars. i'm inclined to think that long-term, it would be good for us. annoying in the short-term, for sure.
I concur that in the long run, it MAY be a good thing for this nation, provided it brings to heel the rampant spending of our government and our populace, and puts and end to the apparent drive of that government to become a globe controlling empire.

Short term could be VERY painful if our currency collapses and folks abroad stop selling us all the junk the American consumer has become addicted too, as well as the oil our culture mainlines daily.
 
more specifically, the chicken-little contingent hasn't shown that iran and china would dump enough dollars to cause us more than an annoyance. maybe they would. i don't know. but they haven't provided numbers, just speculation.

so, if, for instance, all the made-in-china stuff in walmart is suddenly 3x higher, we'll stop buying CRAP which frankly isn't a necessity, and instead spend our money on more expensive gas bills. in the long run (which won't be that long time-wise), we'll start making all that crap domestically because it will be cheaper, which means more jobs, etc.
 
TABING said:
Would someone give me a link to information about this "Iranian Boursa"...
Google up "Iranian Bourse", and I get this list. William Clark is the author of most of the top citations in this list and while I think he gets a bit too wrapped around the axle regarding "the stated neoconservative project of U.S. global domination" and blaming this on Bush and the NeoCons, I also think his point about the effects of the Iranian Bourse on our Dollar is a good one. The fight for the Dollar would be taken regardless of party. The real drivers here are the Bankers of the world's Central Banks.

This fight has been coming since we came off the Gold Standard.

And as much as part of me thinks I'm drifting off the deep end of the world for even saying this, even some of the nutcases over at DailyKos get it.
 
so, if, for instance, all the made-in-china stuff in walmart is suddenly 3x higher, we'll stop buying CRAP which frankly isn't a necessity, and instead spend our money on more expensive gas bills. in the long run (which won't be that long time-wise), we'll start making all that crap domestically because it will be cheaper, which means more jobs, etc.

+1 at least there is someone here who understands economics, I dont have the patience anymore to try to explain it. My patience ran out long ago with the thread on how the USA should have never gone off the gold standard, and how that wrecked our economy since 1972.:rolleyes:

The US dollar is now and will continue to be the currency of international trade, and more specifically oil trade for a variety of reasons. The most important of those reasons is stability. There simply isnt and will not in the near future, be any currency that is more stable than the US $.

Maybe in 10 years the Euro will be strong and stable enough but it aint there yet.
 
taliv said:
i'm skeptical about the anticipated effects of iran/china dumping dollars. i'm inclined to think that long-term, it would be good for us.

In China's case, if they were able to inflict a serious devaluation on the dollar the results would be very bad for them. In the past, they have been working overtime to keep the dollar strong. If the dollar weakens, imported consumer goods from China suddenly get a whole lot more expensive in US stores. We quit buying Chinese crap and start buying stuff made here by Americans paid in US dollars - good for us, bad for them.

The cost, of course, is that US consumers don't get as much cheap Chinese crap as they're getting right now. Inconvenient, rude awakening, maybe. Major threat to our economy? Could be the opposite.
 
Sindawe said:
On the economic basis for "Operation Iranian Freedom", this as been pointed to as well.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/discm3.htm

Not publishing M3 anymore? It's typical of this Administration. We've already stoped publishing large swaths of labor statistics, world terrorism reports and a a number of other things when the results would have been less than supportive of policy.
 
tellner said:
Not publishing M3 anymore? It's typical of this Administration....
The Fed is an independent agency within the government. It does not fall under the Executive Branch. It is responsive to oversight from Congress, and it's Governors are appointed by the President, but it's actions are independent. Lots of good information on it here.

Blame things on Bush if you will, but it will be entirely misplaced. What is happening here is far, far beyond party or partisans.
 
perhaps not entirely misplaced. bush deserves blame at least obliquely for his culture of secrecy, even though as far as we know, he didn't sign an exec order to cover up M3. if he were promoting transparency and honesty, instead of trying to cover everything up, then it would be trivial to point at the fed and say "who are you to withhold data from the public?" instead, we're all focused on trying to figure out more important things he's covering up
 
taliv said:
perhaps not entirely misplaced. bush deserves blame at least obliquely for his culture of secrecy, even though as far as we know, he didn't sign an exec order to cover up M3. if he were promoting transparency and honesty, instead of trying to cover everything up, then it would be trivial to point at the fed and say "who are you to withhold data from the public?" instead, we're all focused on trying to figure out more important things he's covering up

Your point notwithstanding, there is always a way to blame Bush.
 
Agree with Master Blaster

The dollar is here to stay for a long while.

I just spoke to some oil people (not ivory tower academics), here, they never heard of this upcomng Bourse, and said if does indeed open, it's not going anywhere. The current way of doing things is too entrenched to change. Keep in mind, the culture here is being dragged reluctantly kicking and screaming into the 14th century.
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
Certainly the world would feel the loss of the U.S. as a consumer giant, but between the rise in value of the Euro and the importance of the emerging markets in China and India, the rest of the world would find consumers to replace the suddenly-impoverished Americans.
I think you make a pretty gross assumption that the rest of the world can step in quickly to consume the goods that Americans could no longer afford.

For example, in such a scenario, the Indians might now be financially ABLE to afford those color TV's that would be out of our financial reach, but since rural electrification of India is still a dream in many areas, what difference would it make? They wouldn't WANT half the crap we now buy. In other words, EVENTUALLY, the rest of the world might become the consumers we are/were, but NOT VERY QUICKLY.

The fact that a rapid drop in the dollar would leave a huge void of consumers would translate into a world-wide economic seismic event, and no one (except selected Islamists) would want that to happen.
 
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