Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

So what's with the brand hate?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Kliegl, Jun 4, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Kliegl

    Kliegl member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    339
    I've been perusing the five won't buy thread and I noticed some trends that, along with some "demotivational" style posters, led me to some questions that, if y'all cared to answer, I'd be happy to read the replies.

    1. Why do people hate HK? Between my old man and myself, we own four, and, other than the 22 mag being slightly picky on the brand of hollowpoints it likes to feed well, they've been great guns. I really like my USP Elite 45, the thing's a tack driver, best mags on a pistol I've seen, and, other than my Model 29-2 and my 1911, the best single action trigger I've got as well. So, I don't get it. Are people THAT angry that they cost more than Glocks?

    2. Why do people hate Taurus? I know they copy gun designs, and, of the five between my old man and I, the trigger is hard on the Millennium first gen we have, and I had to crank the rear sight all the way up on the PT-101 to get it to shoot where I aimed, along with some slide rail wear, but they are not guns I wouldn't trust with my life, provided good care and ammo. Some people seem so mistrusting of Taurus that I guess they wouldn't mind having one pointed at them and the trigger pulled, as they surely won't go off, or something like that. I've heard the Taurus customer service horror stories, but the one we sent in, the aforementioned Millennium, came back days early with a *somewhat* better trigger. While I do feel that they are cheaper guns than, say, HK, for instance, my personal line for minimum quality is exceeded by Taurus.

    3. Why do folks hate the Taurus Judge? I bought one for my old man for Christmas a couple years ago, and I got the blued, 2.5" chamber, 3" barrel, blued model. I think it was @400 dollars, not the 550 or 600 people claim. Anyway, the 45 Colt at 25 yards is decently accurate, 3-5" groups offhand, and the shotshell is pure fun. I can't imagine a better snake gun. Also, those HD or 00 buck rounds would positively wreck your Christmas at under 10 yards..we're not talking 12 gauge here, but it's a PISTOL. Granted, the pattern gets out of control fast past that, but I think the gun does all it was designed to do, and does it well. Cleaning shotgun residue out of rifling does indeed suck, however, but that's my only gripe. But, from it being a Taurus, and being a .410, surely many here would not mind it being pointed at them, either, judging by the comments.

    While I am, by no means, employed by, or am an apologist for, either company or its guns, I do own a few examples from both companies, and the very gun in question in the third point, and I just don't see where the animosity and hate is merited. I can only postulate that those that are the most vocal might be the most uninformed, at least by my standards, as I feel one should have at least shot an example of a model of a gun before disparaging it.
     
  2. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2011
    Messages:
    5,773
    Location:
    Hastings, Michigan
    1. I don't hate H & K :D , just their price tag. If I can't afford 'em, I will never own 'em. I hear their CS is less than stellar as well, but that is hearsay. I'll never know personally due to aforementioned reason.

    2. I don't hate Taurus. I'm seriously looking at one of their .357 Magnum revolvers with 6" barrel.

    3. Ok, I do hate the Taurus Judge. When I first saw it, (in the Mark Wahlberg movie Max Payne) I was like, awesome, a revolver that shoots shotgun shells! Then I saw one in person, and was like, awesome, can I see the Judge?! Then I held it... eh.
    Months later, I got the chance to fire one at the range. Again, lackluster results. I didn't like the fit and feel of it in my hand, and realized that it did nothing half a dozen other guns couldn't do. It was a niche gun with no niche to fill, other than novelty. I don't bash people that own/ like them, they are just not for me.


    By the way, I own and like my Hi Point guns, so who am I to Judge?
     
  3. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    453
    Location:
    UNITED STATE OF AMERICA--
    Some people swear by glock, some by sig, but i have a friend that has a kimber that used it three times and it has jammed at least seven times but he still swears by it----everyone has they own opinion and thats just what it is---just opinion
     
  4. Kliegl

    Kliegl member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    339
    USAF, it's abbreviated HK, not H&K. http://www.hk-usa.com/index.asp and there's a logo on that page with no &. Also, pronounced HECKler and COKE, not cock. Hehehe.

    Good answers though so far, thanks.
     
  5. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    3,329
    HK? No interest.

    Taurus? Better available.

    The Judge? I already have shotguns.

    For the most part it's personal preference or different standards.
     
  6. dmazur

    dmazur Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,263
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    My reasons for disliking the Taurus Judge are based solely on the marketing angle used to sell them, not on the (possibly inferior) quality that characterizes Taurus products in general.

    "Five is better than one", so anyone concerned about being able to hit what they aim at is led to believe that a Judge is a magic solution. Self defense without all that annoying and costly practice, in other words.

    It's a free country, so what Taurus is doing is no different than any other company trying to sell a product. They play up the advantages and play down the disadvantages.

    I find it discouraging that something like the Judge can be a successful product, that's all.
     
  7. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,206
    Location:
    Brandon, Florida
    1) HK's are great guns. But they have a history of treating civilian gun owners as second class, between poor civilian-side customer service and neutering their hardware in exactly the same way California wants to.

    Aside from that, there are guns that are just as good, for much less. Someone here said "HK's are the best $600 gun you'll ever pay $1200 for."

    Also, their diehard fanboys give them a bad image by denouncing anything not HK, denying that anything could possibly be as good, and in some cases spouting the stuff they learned from Rainbow Six.

    2) I don't get the extent of the Taurus hate. Yes, they can make lemons. Yes, they can wear out faster than a Beretta. Yes, their customer service can take a while. They also cost two-thirds as much as the gun they're a copy of.

    A good Taurus is a good thing. I'd rather have my nice M85 than a rusty S&W Model 10. A bad Taurus is exactly the same as a bad Beretta, but it takes two weeks longer.

    3) The hate on the judge is purely marketing/hype/fanboy based, standard Taurus hate aside. The fanboys thing it will make a great SD gun with birdshort or small buckshot, for some reason. In reality, the rifling makes it far less accurate to shoot shot out of, and there is no chance that 3" of barrel will push a slug made for a shotgun as well as a 19" barrel will.

    From what I've gathered, a Judge is a good gun with .45 LC or a .410 slug handload. But the .410 shotshell thing is a gimmick, for a handgun.
     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,736
    Location:
    Central PA
    A tough question to answer because there are a million answers.

    In general, "brand hate" falls somewhat equally on all brands. Play this game long enough and you'll hear:

    -- That S&W sold out and puts in "Hillary holes" and lots of MIM and their autos have reliability problems, and their quality isn't what it was, and their revolvers are too fragile, and, and, and...

    -- That Colt stopped caring about the civilian market and has had no new idea in 30 years and their beautiful old revolvers are fragile and the whole company is one foot in the grave...

    -- That Springfield makes 1911s that aren't reliable or true to the original design, sells a re-badged Croation auto no one quite knows what to do with, makes M1As that aren't reliable and are no where near as good as the old M14s, and, and, and...

    -- That Ruger sold out back in the AWB-days and their autos are ugly as sin, their revolvers are heavy as lead and you can't get a nice trigger pull out of one, their bolt guns are rough, their Mini-14 is the little assault rifle that couldn't, their .22 rifles make a great gun as long as you throw away every single parts and build a new one on the bare receiver, their .22 autos require a NASA surgeon to reassemble, and, and, and ...

    -- That SIGs are fat, ugly, top-heavy, the controls are in the wrong places, the DA/SA trigger system is a has-been, and they cost waaay too much for what you get ...

    -- That H&Ks are (see SIG) and cost WAAAAAAAY too much for what you get. Plus, they won't (can't?) sell civilians 95% of the cooler stuff they make and don't appear to care very much for the civilian market anyway... (Oh, and that advertisement with the rounds in the mag backward! [/FACEPALM!])...

    -- That Taurus has the most hit-or-miss quality-control in the world and finding a good one is a total crap-shoot. Plus their customer service, which you are almost guaranteed to need, multiple times, is as good as sending off your gun to the moon, by pack mule, and hoping there are little green men up there who might know where to hit it with a little martian hammer to make it go, so that when your great grandkids get it back from CS it will work ... if there are still metallic cartridges made to shoot out of it ... Oh, and they're not such a good deal for the cost anymore, and their marketing of the "Judge" has been such a grossly overblown thing that ... to the astonishment and anger of those in-the-know ... it has WORKED to sell these guns to a public who now can't get enough of them, even though they were a total joke back before Taurus ripped off the idea of the "Thunder 5." Etc...

    -- That Remington can't build a rifle worth buying anymore and 'sides, their safeties will crawl out of the gun safe and kill you in your sleep ...

    -- That Winchester ... what Winchester? Are they even still around?

    -- That Mossberg has lost all credibility as a serious gun manufacturer ever since they started marketing all these dumb-as-dog-poo PGO shotgun variants with fake suppressors, .50 BMG muzzle brakes, "breacher chokes" and other goofiness hanging off them. ...

    -- That Kimber used to put out a great product, but now they are so unreliable that if you used one as a paperweight it would probably fall off your desk...

    -- That Berettas are just full of odd flaws -- unreliable little pocket autos that break, a 9mm service handgun that is so large it would be more appropriate chambered in .50 AE ... and of course it's not very reliable, cool modern handguns that hurt to shoot, etc ...

    And on, and on, and on.

    Several things to consider:
    1) None of these statements are universally true.
    2) None of these statements are universally false.
    3) When a gun is good, 1 person out of 100 tells someone.
    4) When a gun is bad, or the user thinks it's bad, that one user will tell everyone, repeatedly.
     
  9. rodregier

    rodregier Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,677
    Location:
    Halifax,NS Canada
  10. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    3,329
    I had one so bad papers blew out from under...and it fell off the desk. Fortunately, it landed on the MIM grip safety, which broke, and didn't damage the hardwood floor.
     
  11. oldvet53

    oldvet53 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    N.E.Arkansas
    the only reason I dislike the Taurus is I onced owned a 24/7 .40 cal. compact and it was dao and had a trigger that was too long of pull and not ever having any idea when it would brake and caused me to jerk it in a combat type of shooting practice so I got rid of it and went back to a 1911A1 platform as it was what I had used in the Army and knew it could be counted on.
     
  12. Hobie

    Hobie Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    366
    Location:
    Staunton, VA
    To answer the question, its the Ford vs Chevy arguments. What it comes down to is different strokes for different folks.
     
  13. Tape

    Tape member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    210
    Sam, I don't believe that "Colt stopped caring about the civilian market" It was during that time when people were getting killed by a certain gun, not only did they go after the one holding the gun but also the manufacture of the gun that spit out the bullet. Colt did not want the liability; this was also the same time when Colt pistols doubled in price. I believed it was in the ‘90s.
     
  14. PavePusher

    PavePusher Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    314
    Location:
    Tucson
    Sam1911, that was probably the funniest thing I'll see all day. Thanks!
     
  15. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,736
    Location:
    Central PA
    Tape, I'm not claiming to believe ANY ... or neither ... of these points. I'm just sharing a few of the claims I've heard over the years.

    Not sure what you mean about "that time when people were getting killed by a certain gun" (what gun was killing people?) but the legal and political environment was certainly tough on manufacturers around the end of the 80s and beginning of the 90s.

    Colt's situation is obviously a culmination of many factors.
     
  16. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2011
    Messages:
    5,773
    Location:
    Hastings, Michigan
    I know, and it irks all the H&K fan boys, so I will continue to include the ampersand.
     
  17. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,655
    I don't hate any guns, but their are plenty that I dislike.
     
  18. merlinfire

    merlinfire Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    793
    In short:

    People like to hate things, because it makes them better than those that like said things. It's like choosing a favorite football team and then rooting against all the others.
     
  19. Aiko492

    Aiko492 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Messages:
    275
    Don't have any experience with Taurus so cannot comment. But HK along with Glock are my two favorite makers of pistols. Have owned various HK's at various times for over 15 years. I would trust my life to an HK pistol any day.
     
  20. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,405
    Location:
    nc mountains
    I hate . I hate seeing another over priced 1911 on the cover or inside most mags anymore. I would like a 1911 again just not some or any 1000 dollar + pistol. 500 or less yes I will buy one. Thats may hate. Lastest guns and ammo has to high dollar 1911 one waaay 2000 dollars and shoots no better than a witness match.
     
  21. clutch

    clutch Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2006
    Messages:
    871
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    The Judge is just plain stupid. A .410 wonder shotgun shell is no match for a properly designed .45LC round and the latter will work with a shorter firearm.

    As to brands, I really don't care, I don't care for Glocks but if you like them, go for it, Glocks shoot good, I just don't like them. HK's, never shot one, Sigs, those are cool.

    Kimbers, I hear they make nice ones, I'm waiting for a SA Range officer, I hear that is good, heck a decent 1911 has to be good.

    Selecting and using a firearm is an intensely personal decision, what you think is a wonderful gun based on ergonomics, price points, ideas on how a firearm should operate varies greatly across individuals.

    Outside of a dangerous piece of crap and any gun can get that way though some start that way, I'm not going to dis your choice. (well I did dis that Judge, it deserves it) :neener:

    Clutch
     
  22. Twiki357

    Twiki357 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,906
    Location:
    Prescott Valley, AZ
    Don’t have a HK (or a H&K) or any variation of a Taurus so I don’t hate either. But if any of the haters do have them and want an unbiased opinion, I’d be glad to give you my FFL’s mailing address and I’ll evaluate them for a few decades. :D
     
  23. LDNN

    LDNN Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I don't hate the brands, I just won't buy some brand because they don't look appealing or the ergonomics is poor for me.
     
  24. bayhawk2

    bayhawk2 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    S/W Texas
    Taurus-You love em or hate em.I have the
    Taurus Judge and the Taurus .44 Mag Tracker.
    No flaws in either.I reload for the Tracker and
    shoot the Federal Handgun .410 000 Buck in
    the Judge.Both are awesome firearms.Had a guy in another
    site say the .410 Judge will only cause "superficial" wounds
    to the B/G.Once again.He said he never owned one or even
    held one in his negative typing fingers.Just how he hated
    Taurus and said they were junk.I try figure out how someone
    can give a review on a gun that they have never owned,held,
    or shot.
     
  25. Gunnerpalace

    Gunnerpalace Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Somewhere in Michigan
    People hate on HK because of ignorance, and perpetuated falsehoods.

    Taurus Judges, are disliked because Taurus markets them as the do all end all pistol,
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page