So where are we on CCW as you cross state lines on vacation, after the SCOTUS decision

Discussion in 'Legal' started by roscoe, Sep 16, 2022.

  1. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    I am aware that various states are opening up their permitting processes. But how are states handling people crossing state lines in states that have historically not recognized other states' permits? Are you expected to take a class and buy a permit for every New England state you cross through if you are heading up to watch the leaves change in Vermont (where no permit is needed)?

    Are there any lawsuits pending that will force states to recognize other permits? I would think that, on cost grounds alone, there would be challenges. I wonder what the total amount you would need to spend, and hw many classroom hours, to get permits across all 50 states.
     
  2. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    I don't think reciprocity has been affected all that much. Certainly I haven't seen any radical changes in any of the states, as yet.

    Here's a site that does an outstanding job of keeping current on the handgun laws across the country. Every page for each jurisdiction is laid out the same, so it's easy to find information when going from state to state in their site. They also provide links directly to the state statutes, which are excellent for going straight to the source. And at the very end, you can see when each page was last edited and why.

    https://handgunlaw.us/
     
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  3. jstert

    jstert Member

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    reciprocity wasn’t addressed in the bruen case but it should come up next. if a driving license can cross state lines, so should a ccw license.
     
  4. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    This is a meaningless and false analogy. Driver’s licenses “cross state lines”, because the States have agreed among themselves to recognize the drive’s licenses of other States.
     
  5. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    True, and driving is not really a 'right'. But for CCW - there is no other constitutionally enumerated right that is constrained at state borders, at least as far as I know. Previously CCW was considered a right recognized by individual states. But now that SCOTUS has made it a true constitutional right, I can't see how states could impose a lot of costs and burdens on the exercise of that right. I would think that the threshold would have to be pretty low.

    Is there another 'constitutional' right that is limited by costs and training at state borders?
     
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  6. JN01

    JN01 Member

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    The SCOTUS Obergefell vs Hodges case requiring all states to allow/recogize gay marriges seems more applicable.
     
  7. redcon1

    redcon1 Member

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    You will, as always, be protected by FOPA but it's not a protection I would abuse. On my drives to the east coast, I pre-locate the locations close to the borders of those particular states where I can pull over and unload my weapon and safely/legally store it in the back of the vehicle and that's what I do when I get close to enemy territory. And when I choose my routes, I try to minimize my time in the anti-gun states. I'll happily drive more than a few extra minutes out of my way if it keeps me out of prison over some bogus gun charge. I used to go to Maine quite often but there's no way to get there from here without spending more time that I'm comfortable with in NY and/or Massachusetts so I don't go to Maine anymore. It's cheaper to just buy lobster at the grocery store and look at old pictures of Bar Harbor. I'm not at all interested in going to prison over my RKBA and I'm not so nervous on well travelled roads that I feel the need to have a handgun on my hip 100% of the time. For me, the biggest threat to me in these states is the police, not the criminals.
     
  8. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    I avoid going into Illinois for that same reason even though I still have family in the Quad Cities area. And when I do go there, I too stop just this side of the state line to unload and lock up my pistol first. the PR of Ill does not accept or honor other state's CCW permits along with making it hard and expensive for non residents to get an Ill CCW.
     
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  9. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    It's a bit picayune, but Bruen only addressed the "show good reason" (e.g. "probably not") Permit States, and not Permit Reciprocity.

    For the vast number of Shall Issue States, only about half have similar enough requirements for reciprocity among themselves. Some of that is based in the "when" of the enactment of the statutes, as more and more States have joined the Shall Issue movement, the language of the laws has become more similar.

    There is a parallel in the number of States adopting Permit-less Carry; those are all strikingly similar in their language and application.

    The process is evolving. And, from my perspective (which predates Florid becoming one of the first Shall Issue States) it's been an improving sort of evolution. Now, those States which are inimical to the liberty of their citizens have become more so, not less as these things have changed. As the rest of us have become more 'free' those places have relentlessly become less so. To the point of blatantly and notoriously ignoring the SCOTUS decision.
     
  10. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    True, but once you articulate a right as 'constitutional', a whole lot of things should flow from that. The decision was specific, but the right articulated was not, at least as I read it. Once Brown v. Board outlawed segregation in public high schools, desegregation in education at every level, across the US, became law (whether applied in actuality or not).

    In this case, it relied on the 14th Amendment incorporating the 2nd, so that citizens across the US with "ordinary self-defense needs" have right to be able to bear arms in public places. The use of the 14th Amendment seems to argue that the right follows the citizen across state lines. I would argue that requiring citizens to acquire a permit for every state border (or, potentially, even smaller municipality) would impose an undue burden on the constitutional right of "ordinary self-defense". No other constitutionally articulated right is similarly constrained, at least of which I am aware.

    If this were not the case, were a state were truly anti-gun they could, in theory, require a different permit for every county and city.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  11. hk940

    hk940 Member

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    I guess I am a felon for 12 minutes when going thru MD, coming from WV going to PA
     
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  12. redcon1

    redcon1 Member

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    I recently made that same 12 minute trip. I pulled over and stowed the gun legally for those 12 minutes. When I was out of enemy territory, I retrieved the weapon as soon as it was practical. I'm not going to sit in a Maryland prison for 12 years because I couldn't drive down the road without my gun on my hip for 12 minutes.
     
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  13. hk940

    hk940 Member

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    Yes you are right there, Do you think MD will honor any out od state permits?
     
  14. redcon1

    redcon1 Member

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    Not any time soon if ever. They should have to of course but who wants to become the defendant in that case? I am not interested in going to prison for even the most righteous of causes. And so I avoid these states to the extent possible and obey their laws when it's not possible to avoid them and when I do end up in one of these states for any amount of time, I like to leave them a nice deuce on my way through.
     
  15. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    From memory, MD already had at least one class-based case in either District or Appeals Court over the "show good cause" denial of permits.
    Technically, Bruen should have vacated those, and ruled "for defendant"--whether MD does that, or follows the NY example waits to be seen.
    From memory, NJ had a suit pending SCOTUS review on "show good cause" but, I have not heard what NJs response to Bruen is.
     
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  16. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    MD is already issuing permits under 'shall issue' standards. My brother just went through the process. Recognizing other states' permits is another question entirely.
     
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  17. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I think that FOR NOW, most of what this does is CORRECTLY flip the focus on restrictive states to show them as being the outlier rather than the norm.
     
  18. jstert

    jstert Member

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    i have looked deeply into the legal history behind ccw reciprocity, then i realized that i fell into the lawyers’ trap of complicating what should be a clear, common-sense solution: no enumerated constitutional right should be zip-code dependent.

    i will happily leave the legal path to this result up to smarter others to construct, but the bottom line holds, again: no enumerated constitutional right should be zip-code dependent.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
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  19. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    As I live in Detroit, Michigan, Illinois is a huge roadblock on any travel west unless I want to make a huge loop south or north.
     
  20. Tony50ae

    Tony50ae Member

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    You can travel in Illinois with a ccw permit from another state. There is a provision in the law that allows it even though Illinois doesn't recognize other state permits. The catch is you must be traveling through the state, not just visiting, and you cannot exit the car while wearing it. Stop for gas? Take it off. Stop for a bathroom break? Take it off. Of course it would probably be safer to take it off before entering the state to avoid any memory lapses if you stop somewhere.
    From the Illinois state police website:
    HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE
    ISSUED BY ANOTHER STATE, IS MY LICENSE
    RECOGNIZED IN ILLINOIS?
    No. Illinois does not recognize concealed carry licenses
    from other states. However, a resident from another state
    who has a valid concealed carry license from their home
    state may carry a concealed firearm within a vehicle while
    traveling through Illinois. If the non-resident leaves his or
    her vehicle unattended, the firearm shall be stored within a
    locked vehicle or locked container within the vehicle
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  21. Tilos

    Tilos Member

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  22. Ks5shooter
    • Contributing Member

    Ks5shooter Contributing Member

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    Quote"From memory, MD already had at least one class-based case in either District or Appeals Court over the "show good cause" denial of permits.
    Technically, Bruen should have vacated those, and ruled "for defendant"--whether MD does that, or follows the NY example waits to be seen.
    From memory, NJ had a suit pending SCOTUS review on "show good cause" but, I have not heard what NJs response to Bruen is."Quote


    Nj is complying but minimally and changing requirements often. I got my complete packet in early.Six weeks ago. Just yesterday it was shipped off to the county from my local pd.It then goes to the state from there.Next to the judge then back through the same entities.
    So far its $50 application fee,$100+ for qualification class.$56 plus tax for fingerprints that they already have on file for 40 years for me.And every two years you have to repeat the whole process.
    So if you are poor and cant afford it you wont be able to carry. I see a law suit in the future about this.
     
  23. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    This is good to know. Typically if I pass through Illinois it will be in a motor home, so a bathroom stop does not require I get out of the vehicle.
     
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  24. Tony50ae

    Tony50ae Member

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    Yes you definitely will be good. What sucks is I am originally from Illinois and live in Louisiana. My ccw of course is not recognized. And according to Illinois law I can't get an out of state ccw because the law states non residents must come from a state in which their gun laws are similar to theirs. Not many states qualify and certainly not Louisiana. I was willing to take the ccw course while visiting family, but it wouldn't matter cause of how the law is currently written.
     
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  25. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    The laws say that. And federal law also allows for peaceful travel through each state. But try driving through with out of state tags, especially Missouri tags. You will get stopped and searched by the Ill State Police. I have had that happen a few times and I was glad that I took the time to unload and lock up my pistol before crossing the state line.
     
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