So where are we on CCW as you cross state lines on vacation, after the SCOTUS decision

Discussion in 'Legal' started by roscoe, Sep 16, 2022.

  1. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    Missouri
    I know all of that information comes up if our names, DL number or license plate number is ran through MULES when here in Missouri. And I am sure it comes up for out of state law enforcement now that systems are all connected.

    The problem was when we first got Conceal Carry here in Missouri. The program was ran by the MOHP and all info was stored in the MULES system. At that time we had a choice of having our CCW permit on our DL or on a separate state ID. Those that had their CCW on their DL had issues when traveling into Illinois. If you got stopped for any reason and the Ill. State Police saw the CCW on your DL, they would definitely start searching your vehicle for weapons. I made that mistake for the first 3 years of having my CCW. After getting stopped and searched a few times in Ill. I removed my CCW from my DL and had it on a State ID only. By doing that, it save me headaches when traveling in Illinois.

    I know some are not believing me but that is what happened in the past. Yes it was wrong but the Ill State Police did harass Missouri residents for some time.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  2. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,125
    Location:
    RKBA-Friendly Utah
    This is the crux of the OP and this thread:

    I stay out of such states as much as I can while their laws catch up to Bruen.

    One fine point of this discussion has to do with tribal lands. New Mexico, for example, leaves decisions regarding concealed carry and carry permit recognition to tribal authorities. I wonder if McDonald v Chicago and NYRPA v Bruen also apply to these entities.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  3. roscoe

    roscoe Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,792
    Location:
    NV
    Well, yes, incorporation has been piecemeal over time, and was originally resisted by the court, which wasn't surprising given the makeup of the court at the time (e.g. Bradwell v. State of Illinois, Civil Rights Cases, US v. Harris). United States v. Cruikshank was, especially, a political statement against Reconstruction and clearly contrary to any plain reading of the 14th Amendment. But these decisions were largely overturned and I would argue the 20th century decisions were more in line with the intent of the 14th amendment.

    Anyway, my main point was that the Bruen decision specifically says "New York’s proper-cause requirement violates the Fourteenth
    Amendment by preventing law-abiding citizens with ordinary self-defense needs from exercising their Second Amendment right to keep and
    bear arms in public for self-defense."

    Perhaps I am wrong, but it appears to me that by referencing the 14th they are pre-emptively incorporating the 2nd. And once incorporated, I don't see how the right can be constrained by state borders, which it effectively is if every state has different regulations and rules and fees and training standards.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
    chaim, aaaaa and RetiredUSNChief like this.
  4. JDeere

    JDeere Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2020
    Messages:
    854
    I'm not testing the waters anywhere until I receive concrete reciprocity info. I make it a point not to go to any state that does not honor my LTC. I passed on a nice motorcycle ride up the west coast once because of this. I don't want or need to be harassed, put in jail or get an attorney to prove a point that is not set in stone...ymmv
     
    aaaaa and RetiredUSNChief like this.
  5. drobs

    drobs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2017
    Messages:
    1,780
    Location:
    Missouri
    How far over the speed limit were you going? I visit family in Illinois and Michigan all the time and have never been stopped.
    I keep my speeding to 4mph to 9mph over the limit - on the highway. In town I do the speed limit.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  6. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    11,306
    Location:
    SC (Home), VA (Work)
    I like cruise control.
     
    Insignificant bill and drobs like this.
  7. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2014
    Messages:
    4,826
    Location:
    Somewhere in WA.

    Yeah, the west coast is all locked down. I live in WA and my permit isn't recognized by OR, CA or NV. The only way I can go south and carry is through ID. That's what I did the last few years we wintered in the SW. CA and OR are foreign countries for me. I'll make a concession for my wife every few years and travel to OR for her family reunion. Other than that I have no reason to visit OR or CA. They aren't going to change anything there in my lifetime.
     
    RetiredUSNChief and .308 Norma like this.
  8. drobs

    drobs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2017
    Messages:
    1,780
    Location:
    Missouri
    I have an Aunt and Uncle living in the Seattle area of WA that I need to visit soon. I'd like to bring a carry gun with me and I've read that open carry is legal (for in and out of staters) in WA. My question for you is do you ever see anyone open carrying in the Seattle area? How about your local area?

    Here in South West / South Central Missouri, I see open carriers frequently. Even in the "big city" of Springfield, MO.

    I carry concealed.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  9. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    Missouri
    One time I was doing 5 MPH over. I would have actually believed getting pulled over for obstructing traffic at that time since everyone else was passing me like I was sitting still. The other time I got stopped, they tried saying my license plate light was out, which is wasn't.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  10. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,263
    Location:
    Holt, MI
    I may be mistaken, but I thought the entire point of McDonald v. Chicago was to incorporate the 2nd Amendment to the states via the 14th Amendment in 2010.

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  11. drobs

    drobs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2017
    Messages:
    1,780
    Location:
    Missouri
    What did they give you for probable cause? You can refuse a search. Do you have gun stickers on your vehicle? What kind of vehicle - old and rusty?
    I've never had a problem, I drive a modern vehicles in good condition, and haven't had a ticket or been pulled over in 20+ years.

    These past couple of years, I've been visiting my sister in Grand Haven Michigan for Thanksgiving. I drive through Illinois and spend the night in Remington, Indiana. Never been stopped but there's always a 1st.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  12. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    Missouri
    The first time was for going 5mph over the posted speed limit and the second time was for my license plate light being out. The probable cause to search was the fact that I had my CCW permit number on my drivers license. Yes I could have refused them but I didn't want the hassle. This was shortly after Missouri first passed CCW. And yes if the Ill. State Police saw a CCW permit on a Missouri driver license, they would search your vehicle for weapons. It definitely was not right but it did happen.

    I have not had any issues since our CCW permits are now on a separate card issued by each county sheriff and also since Illinois has passed their CCW laws.
     
    drobs and RetiredUSNChief like this.
  13. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    12,733
    Location:
    California - San Francisco Bay Area
    And again, this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of law:

    1. The question of incorporation was addressed in McDonald v. City of Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010).

    2. MacDonald decided that States were subject to the Second Amendment. In other words, based on the doctrine of incorporation, the Court decided that the Second Amendment protects a fundamental right to "keep and bear arms" that is included in the right to "liberty" protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

    3. But there's considerable legal authority for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights can be subject to limited regulation. So any state regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment must be within the scope of what the courts will ultimately work out to be the scope and extent of constitutionally permissible regulation of those rights.

    4. So your comment:
      is simply wrong. Even with incorporation, States may still regulate constitutionally protected rights as long as such regulation falls within the scope and extent of constitutionally permissible regulation of those rights.

      But that doesn't mean that regulation of those constitutionally protected rights can't or won't vary from State-to-State.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  14. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2022
    Messages:
    1,346
    Location:
    Near Detroit MI
    Have to check each state's open carry. As I understand it, there is no open carry law in Michigan. It just is open carry only because it has never been prohibited by law. However, in Michigan to open carry without a CPL you have to remove the gun before you get in a car, because once you are in a car with your open carry gun, it becomes concealed carry and you would need a CPL.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  15. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2014
    Messages:
    4,826
    Location:
    Somewhere in WA.
    Nobody open carries on the west side. That's everywhere west of the Cascade mountain range. I'm in Island county which is fairly rural but no OC here. At least I haven't seen it except in my rural neighborhood. Haven't seen it at the local market, gas station or Home Depot. I think most everyone who carries does it concealed in this neck of the woods. WA doesn't recognize your MO permit according to this website. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/wa-gun-laws/

    I wouldn't let that keep you from visiting the Seattle area. Odds are you'll be fine. I lived in Seattle and adjacent cities for 23 years and never needed a piece. I've had a permit since 92. Just don't go into Seattle (the city) and you'll be fine.

    There's lots off rude aholes about but just ignore them. The fact is WA is a shall issue state and you just never know who might being doing the hole punching.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
    drobs and RetiredUSNChief like this.
  16. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    9,049
    Location:
    on Puget Sound
    Gonna have to disagree a bit here.

    Kitsap, Mason, Clallam, even Jefferson counties... although not truly commonplace, it's seen. Even in the more rural areas of Pierce County. Can't speak to Snohomish County, but I know there's a lot of active OCers up in Whatcom County.

    Yikes! Maybe "area," but as you said, nothing worth visiting Seattle anymore (and it's a shame). Anyone been downtown lately, especially around Alaskan Way? Try walking from one of the stadiums to the ferry terminal late at night sometime and let me know how safe you feel (since even for off-duty LEOs, no guns allowed in the ballparks). Anywhere around Pike Place (all the way up 3rd is still a hot mess) or Pioneer Square after dark; heck, even the U District is getting lively.

    Back on topic, I see no way the out-of-state carry situation will improve in spite of the recent SCOTUS decisions. On paper, reciprocity might expand, but the New York and California models (restricting any concealed carry in all public areas) will prevail.
     
  17. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2014
    Messages:
    4,826
    Location:
    Somewhere in WA.
    I just don't get out much since the black death except north of Everett occasionally. I'm sure the farther away you get from the metro areas you will probably see OC to some degree. I don't see it where I live but lots of pavement dwellers have moved here in the last 10 years from places like Seattle, Portland and CA. I did however see one person near Quinault over on the peninsula last month walking on the side of the road in OC mode. I guess that's the west side so I exaggerated a bit. ;)

    I declined a wedding invitation last month because it was in the Fremont district. There was no parking within 4 blocks of the event and walking anywhere in Seattle is a non starter for me.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice