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So, Who Regularly Hunts Past 600 Yards...?!?

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Garandimal, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    Toughen up


    So seriously you jumped on an axis deer? Was alcohol involved? Had you just watched Rambo?
     
  2. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    I was 16, and "I dare you!" was our battle cry......

    Honestly that's not the stupidest thing I've been dared to do, one of them in hind sight, but not the stupidest....
    There was an "I betcha cant" shot on a goat that took me handful of rounds to connect and 4 hours of walking to go get.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
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  3. Bottom Gun

    Bottom Gun Member

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    No matter how good a hunter thinks he can shoot or how much he “trains”, sooner or later something will not go as intended on one of those 600 yd shots and then the animal will needlessly suffer.

    In my opinion, taking shots at game animals beyond 300-350 yd is just plain irresponsible.
     
  4. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    I remember them days. Lucky I survived them. So I could move into increased danger as an adult.
     
  5. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Here, hold my beer and watch this! :rofl:
     
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  6. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Which one? 300 or 350? Is this YOUR self-imposed limit, or what you think everyone else should adhere to? What is the basis for this number? I have never hunted antelope (I would like to) but its my understanding that the 100 yard and closer shots that deer hunters take for granted aren't there. Antelope hunters, how far are y'all prepared to shoot?
     
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  7. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Sniping and hunting are not comparable activities except in terms of the skill required in both cases. Wounding an enemy combatant because the shot was taken when the conditions were not likely to lead to a solid lethal hit is not unethical. Wounding a game animal under those identical circumstances definitely is unethical.
    Shooting varmints is not quite the same thing as hunting game animals. Especially if the circumstances are such that wounding an animal is very unlikely. Shooting prairie dogs with a centerfire rifle is such an example. They are considered pests and it's pretty hard to hit a prairie dog with a centerfire rifle and wound it. Just about any hit is lethal, just about anything else is a clean miss.
    Yes, there are certainly circumstances that are totally beyond the control of the shooter. However, the idea that because such things exist, there is nothing wrong with intentionally adding on more complicating circumstances that one can not control is incorrect.

    For example, I can't keep a bee from stinging me at the moment I break a shot, but I can refrain from taking a shot where the time of flight is so long that it creates the reasonable expectation that the animal has the time to move after the shot was broken and spoil a shot which would have otherwise been perfect.
    Gongs can't move after you break the shot. Once TOF gets sufficiently long, it introduces a variable that the shooter can not control.
    The total impossibility of coming up with one single "ethical distance" that applies to all living targets, all hunters, all hunting conditions and all calibers and firearms doesn't mean that there isn't any ethical range limit.

    A huge part of responsible and ethical hunting is considering all the circumstances realistically and making a decision based on those circumstances, not based on ego, the desire to shoot something, the desire to prove it's possible, etc.
     
  8. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    Some people have an answer for everything.
     
  9. Bottom Gun

    Bottom Gun Member

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    Yep, that’s my limit because I pay attention to things such as energy and bullet performance at extended ranges as well as considering unseen twigs or branches that can and will deflect a bullet. I’ll leave the 600 yd stuff to the White Feather wannabees and other irresponsible hunters.

    At 600 yd, a bullet out of a light rifle like a 270 will have dropped about 5 FEET and shed 60% of its energy.

    I’m curious, I spent five years in working for a defense contractor in Ft Walton Beach. One thing I found lacking in the panhandle was a decent rifle range with the exception of that crappy little range in Crestview. I might be mistaken but I don’t recall that Crestview range having anything beyond 100 yd.
    Where do you practice making those amazing 600 yd shots?
     
  10. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    I find the argument that it is easier to wound rather than kill an animal at extended range than it is to do the same at short range is simply a meaningless argument.

    Yes, there are additional considerations in making that long range shot, but the number of animals wounded and lost by long range hunters absolutely pales in comparison to the numbers wounded and lost by short range hunters. It is easy to understand why that is - there are orders of magnitude more poor short range shooters than poor long range shooters. Think about it...

    So, if you are a hunter who is concerned about others shooting, wounding and losing an animal, then perhaps consider concentrating your righteous concern on "regular" short range hunters.

    And you know the ones I'm talking about. They show up at the range the week before opening weekend with a firearm they haven't touched since the end of last season, take 3 shots that land somewhere in an 8 inch circle at 100 yards and say, "Yep, that'll kill a deer!"

    Um, at the local shooting range? Some of us have access to ranges that go out that far and further. And others have access to wide open land out west. There are many places to shoot long distance. Just because you don't have access to such places doesn't mean no one else does either.
     
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  11. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Is this because you find the argument that it is easier to miss at long range than at close range meaningless?

    I do agree that if it were easier to make hits at extended range than at short range, the argument would be meaningless. But I think (hope) we all know that it's actually harder to make good hits at extended range than it is at short range.
    What would be necessary to do a reasonable comparison would be the wounding/loss RATE of long range vs shot range shots. Let's look at a hypothetical comparison: If 1000 animals are shot at close range and 100 are wounded/lost, and 20 animals are shot at long range with only 10 wounded/lost, it is certainly true that the number of long range animals wounded/lost pales in comparison to the number wounded/lost at long range.

    However the real information comes when we look at the percentages of our hypothetical example. 50% of the long range animals were wounded/lost while only 10% of the short range animals were wounded/lost.

    If anybody has statistics that relate wounding/loss rates to the range at which the initial shot was taken, I would be very interested to see them.
     
  12. Bottom Gun

    Bottom Gun Member

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    That question was directed to FL-NC.
    I think you missed my point. There were no places to shoot long distance in the FL panhandle when I was working contract there from 2005 to 2010.
    Here at home, I can shoot as far as I want. Want to shoot 1,000 yd? You can do it here but that's not the issue..
     
  13. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    Yeah, that's where I was going. I was talking about the hunter population in general. If you want to talk about the rate comparison, then I'd agree with you, the percentages of wounded and lost MIGHT be higher at long range. But that isn't what I meant.

    Well, so would I.

    I'll try to make my point again... I just don't understand the indignation expressed here against those who choose to hunt at extended ranges.

    I have, unfortunately, deer hunted for many years in shotgun only zones and I can't begin to count the number of deer that I have had to help others track because they gut shot it at 50 yards or less, or took off a leg, or knocked it down only to have it jump up and run off never to be found. I have also several times had to watch a wounded deer travel past me and not be able to do the right thing to put it out of its misery because it was a doe and I didn't have a doe permit or it was a buck under the antler restriction limit. And I've had such things happen more than once in a single season. There are many hunters who can't shoot accurately at any range. Where is the indignation regarding them?

    I've also had the opportunity to hunt in Wyoming, Idaho and Alaska and while the ranges in those states can be extended, most animals I have taken have been at "reasonable" ranges. However, I have taken shots at three animals at ranges beyond 400 yards with the furthest at 760 yards. Three is a small sample size and sometime perhaps my luck will change, but I have taken the 3 using 4 shots and have lost none, nor had to track them at all. I most definitely try to get closer when I can, but if I can't and I feel conditions to take the shot are good, I'll do it. If you don't like it, tough bananas...
     
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  14. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    There's plenty of indignation about that and I've seen it expressed in other threads and on other forums. It does make sense that because this thread is specifically about hunting at very long range the discussion has stayed focused on that topic.
    I don't understand what's hard to understand about it. Once the range stretches to the point that the shooter can literally do everything, exactly right and still end up with a gut shot/wounded/lost animal due to animal having time to move and ruin the shot because the TOF is so long, then it has come down to just playing the odds.

    Ethical hunting is about making shots that we know are within our skill level. Shots that we know we can make on a regular basis.

    Intentionally introducing variables that can create misses even if everything is done right mean that we can no accurately longer say that the shot is within our skill level. We can no longer accurately say that we know we will make the shots on a regular basis.

    It's like getting lined up on a hunting shot that we know we can make, and then asking a friend to randomly twist the scope dials. We have intentionally introduced a variable that is entirely out of our control. There's no way we can accurately claim that we know that making the shot is within our skill level because we don't know how the scope is set.

    Maybe he only changed the dials a little (maybe the animal doesn't move or only moves a little) and we'll make the shot.

    Maybe he changed the dials a lot (maybe the animal moves significantly) and then there's no way to make a clean shot no matter what we do.

    There's no way we can say we would be able to make a shot like that on a regular basis because the scope setting could be different (the animal might or might not move and could move a lot or a little) for every shot.
     
  15. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    The problem with that logic is the fact that..... “No matter how good a hunter thinks he can shoot or how much he “trains”, sooner or later something will not go as intended on one of those 250 yd shots and then the animal will needlessly suffer.


    That is just as true as your statement. The distance is nearly irrelevant in that statement.

    I once hunted for an injured deer that was shot well inside of 30 yards, eventually found some long white hair and figured out it had been shot very low, and likely wouldn’t be found..... so maybe we should keep shots limited to 20 yards. Obviously, that’s sarcasm and still wouldn’t solve the problem which is the point
     
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  16. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

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    AGREED! :thumbup: There are all sorts of variables involved at any range with any harvesting technique, folks.

    My shots? Limited to 100 yards, as I use black powder and a flintlock to "up" my game. As mentioned too, even at 25 yards, I can have a hang-fire, or problems with my load, or for some reason didn't see that thin branch that deflected the ball just enough to not hit the lungs.

    WE have no idea how many times our brother, who is shooting from 400 or even 600 yards, passes on a shot. :confused: Since few if any of us have done such shooting, even on a range, we don't know what he or they that do shoot at those ranges take into account before squeezing off a round. (Well, actually I do, but it was with an M40A1, and that was 30 years ago.;)) IF he can make the shot, and has a track record of successful such shots, I at least won't give the guy grief.

    So let's not debate with him or them while only drawing on our personal experience, since we are not him, eh?

    LD
     
  17. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Discussion

    [

    core.jpg
    You aren't "mistaken", but a lot has changed here in 8 years. This range is down the road from where I live. Our max range is closer to 1,000 now, and there is a restricted area under construction that will push out even further. I train here weekly, often with the guys I worked with. Check us out on youtube.

    I agree. That "line" is different for everyone.

    -

     
  18. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Lots of pronghorn are taken with bows. :D Those are mostly taken from hides. It's my understanding that the Natives would take advantage of the pronghorn's natural curiosity and wave something to attract them. Haven't heard of modern bow hunters doing this, might be folklore. :D

    But, I know there hasn't been an "operator" using a bow since "Rambo". :D

    Rambo_First_Blood_Part_2_Pics_28.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
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  19. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    This thread - was intended to be RE: Practical Long Range Hunting Cartridges... and wandered into an unintended Ethical Hunting corner.

    Currently shooting a batch of Federal Premium 150 gr. Partitions that, with a realistic MV 50 fps below the 2850 fps advertised, out of a rifle with a Bbl 2" shorter than tested, my actual MV is a lot closer to 2730 fps.

    Even so, at 500 yards - it is still carrying well over 1,000 Lb-Ft (1140) of energy and traveling in excess of 1800 fps (1850) to generate adequate penetration and expansion on medium to large game at reasonable angles.

    With a 200 yard zero - it will drop 4' at that range.

    Sighted in at 3" high at 100 yards - it has a PBR of ~ 275 yards and drops 3-1/2' at 500 yards.

    With the heavier bullet at this marginally reduced power level, the rifle is still very comfortable to shoot and subsequent accuracy is < 1.5 MOA from field positions.

    And 500 yards is waaaay down range.




    GR
     
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  20. George P

    George P Member

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    If you know how to hunt and stalk, the distances can be from 100-300 yards. If you really know how to decoy them in with a white flag, the distance can be 30 yards.
     
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  21. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I think it is safe to say that very few people regularly hunt past 600 yards. There are a variety of people who infrequently hunt beyond 600 yards, or maybe do it regularly as in once a year on their big hunting trip out west, but that sort of regularly doesn't actually imply any sort superior performance due to the action being repeated because of the extreme gap in time between "regular" events.
     
  22. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Humans are not infallible. We all miss once in awhile, even on shots we know we are easily capable of making. That fact doesn't justify shooting under any imaginable conditions just because it's possible to miss even when the shot is easy. Clearly there's a difference between taking a high percentage shot and a low percentage shot or no one would even talk about low or high percentage shots.
    I agree. But the fact that everyone's limit is different doesn't mean that the limit can be pushed out to arbitrarily long distances just based on shooter skill.

    There is a practical hard limit that will apply no matter how skilled a shooter is. At some point the TOF gets so long that too much can change during the time that the shot is broken and the bullet travels to the range of the intended target. That creates a practical limit that shooter skill can not stretch significantly.

    I don't know exactly where that limit is, and even it will differ somewhat based on circumstances. Obviously TOF varies somewhat with caliber. Also, animals which are known to be very sedentary or animal types which the shooter knows very well and therefore can predict very well could push the limit out a bit. Game animals which are very skittish or which the shooter is not familiar with at all would shorten the range.
     
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  23. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    i agree.

    i hunt extensively with muzzleloaders, both conventional and scoped inlines. The very best hunter I know is a retired US Army Colonel. He comes to the range before deer season with his nice Knight muzzleloader, fires a couple shots to confirm zero then leaves. That man hunts in several states using that muzzleloader: He kills numerous deer, a bunch of hogs , and a couple elk every year. He has walk in coolers and a walk in freezer.

    Being a superb hunter still counts for something.
     
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  24. HB

    HB Member

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    I would feel safer in a $100 wager on an accomplished NRA highpower shooter killing a deer at 600 yards than your average tag holder at 150.
     
  25. RugerOldArmy

    RugerOldArmy Member

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    I would too, but I'd respect him less.
     
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