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So why not a bottleneck cartridge in a revolver?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by gbran, Nov 16, 2007.

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  1. gbran

    gbran Member

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    We've gone to huge and powerfull straight walled cartirdges such as the 460 & 500 S&W magnums, but why not battlenecks? Seems we could have some wild wicked fast possibilities. Imagine a .45 diameter case swedged down to accept a .357 bullet, 50 cal to 40 cal, etc. 2500+ fps 150 to 200 grain bullets going fast and flat. The possibilities seem endless. I guess this would go a long way for the smaller/faster crowd. If you think your 180 grain 357 is ok for deer, imagine it being launched out of a .45 case.
     
  2. HammerBite

    HammerBite Member

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    This is just a guess, but I suspect that when the round fires the pressure would try to straighten out the shoulder of the case, thereby wedging the case head against the recoil shield and tying up the gun.
     
  3. gbran

    gbran Member

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    The only round I'm familiar with is the 17hmr rimfire, which is a 22magnum necked down to the .17. There have been some reports of case splitting, but it certainly solves the mechanical question as to whether or not you can chamber and fire bottlenecks.
     
  4. Kurac

    Kurac Member

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    Don't forget about the .22 Jet
     
  5. XavierBreath

    XavierBreath Member

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    Ah young weedhopper......ye be shooting them new fangled revolvers have ye?

    Meet the 32WCF, AKA 32/20. Fastern' a speedin' bullet they be.......

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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  6. gbran

    gbran Member

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    Mebbe we need an ammo resugence?
     
  7. Fumbler

    Fumbler Member

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    That's exactly why.

    The 17HMR produces little pressure compared to larger calibers...and some of these still have issues with the cases tying up the actions.
     
  8. dao

    dao Member

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  9. PO2Hammer

    PO2Hammer Member

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    Don't forget about the .357 Bain & Davis (sp?). It was a .44 Rem Mag necked down to .357".
     
  10. logical

    logical Member

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    If you think of a "bottleneck" round like the 22-250 as a "bodied up" .22 instead of a necked down .25, it makes more sense. The goal is to get more room for powder behind a small bullet. In a short barrel like on most handguns, it's unlikely you can actually make much use of that larger charge.

    Not saying there shouldn't be any or that there are no usefull ones but I believe it's why it isn't common.
     
  11. Gordon

    Gordon Member

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    I be picking my jet up this Sunday.I have shot one since the 60s. If the chamberes are kept degreased I've NEVER had a freeze up. Of course a 100 rounds in an afternoon was allways alot of shooting with the JET!
     
  12. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    There's two variants of the Bain & Davis. The early ones did have setback issues so a revision was made to the angle and shape of the shoulder. The Mk2 variant appears to solve most issues up to a surprising amount of power in a large-frame Blackhawk, something like 158gr @ 1,800fps or similar (working from memory).

    The 356GNR is Gary Reeder's answer to the same issue, a 41Mag case necked to 357. Supposedly setback isn't an issue and I'm very keen on scoring a second 357Mag cylinder for my NewVaq and having it reamed to 356GNR. I've also considered the B&D but I don't like the lack of cylinder wall beef that would result.

    NewVaqs have been successfully re-chambered in 41Mag so the 356GNR with stock barrel should be no problem. Reeder has loading data for these in S&W-length cylinders which should be appropriate to the New Vaquero.
     
  13. smee781

    smee781 member

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    bottleneck

    How about a 7.62x25 revolver? I think that would be great!:what: You could fit 7 or 8 in a decent size wheel gun.
     
  14. Slinky

    Slinky Member

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    That was the exact thought I had reading the thread title.
     
  15. Janos Dracwlya

    Janos Dracwlya Member

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    Or, for some real craziness, how about re-chambering a Nagant for something like .32NAA? I guess you'd probably have to go to a six chamber cylinder, if it would even work.
     
  16. 44and45

    44and45 Member In Memoriam

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    Lets put on our stinking caps, .22 Jet, 32-20, 38-40 or is it 38-44, (memory bad on that one because its so freaken old) the 44-40 isn't exactly a straight brass casing is it...kind of narrows up to taper at the top end.

    Then there's a whole slew of wildcats that are too numerous to mention.

    Jim
     
  17. Big Boomer

    Big Boomer Member

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    Magnum Research has a BFR in a 30-30
     
  18. bl4ckd0g

    bl4ckd0g Member

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    Taurus also had a .22 hornet "Raging Hornet". Shooting a few boxes through it at an indoor range will cause a "Raging Headache".
     
  19. Socrates

    Socrates Member

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    Reeder has also been necking down the 500 S&@ to take .45 caliber bullets. 454 casull velocity, without the vicious recoil and pressure...
    Anyone have news on that project.?
     
  20. Bendutro

    Bendutro Member

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    Rumor was the S&W X frame cylinder is 2.3" long so that it could accommodate a .223 round later on. Just what I heard, not sure how much truth there was to it.
     
  21. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    Somebody say bottle neck?
    since I have a .400 Corbon barrel
    for my 1911 I'll chime on in on this
    subject.

    .400 Corbon - developed by Peter Pi at
    CorBon - .45 ACP necked down to .40 with a
    25 degree shoulder. Corbon has not submitted
    it to SAAMI for a pressure spec. but some
    suspect it is in the 26,500 range. I have
    two boxes of .400 CorBon
    155 gr. Speer GDHP @ 1,400 FPS &
    155 gr. Hornady XTP JHP @ 1,360 FPS

    I exchanged some emails exploring the
    possibility of a revolver in .400 CorBon
    with Hamilton Bowen. The S&W Da is
    not possible with a modified S&W Cylinder
    as there is no cylinder to start from & he
    also pointed out the possibility of case back
    out. He suggested a Ruger SA - use a barrel
    in .38-40 and mod. the cylinder - if it had
    chronic case back out it could still be changed
    back to .38-40 and salvage the gun. At that point
    I thought why even do it, just get a SA Ruger in
    .38-40.

    Speaking of the .38-40, it is a necked down .44-40
    The .38-40 is mis-named in that the bore is .40 -
    it should have been named the .40-40

    The .32-20 is it's own 'parent' circa 1874.
    The .25-20 and .219 Zipper? or .218 Bee?
    necked it down further.

    The .22 Jet is a necked down .357 Magnum
    but it, more so in profile is like the .38-40 as
    the case is in a long taper, not an abrupt
    shoulder.

    The older bottlenecked cartridges are SAAMI'd
    at 14,000 psi?c.u.p pressure - the Jet at
    .357 Mag = 35,000 pressure would certainly lead
    to more expansion of the brass case.

    I think case back out is a combination of
    pressure, case shape, and the chamber
    dimensions - & stretched brass reloades
    even if resized the abrupt shoulder on some
    of the different types stretch and would get
    right up agin the bottleneck shoulder
    and chamber length. I hope that makes sense

    Bottle necks work well in rifles and Semi-Autos, long
    guns or handguns because of the
    strength of the actions or the nature of
    Semi-autos in relation to revolvers.

    Hmmm, a Auto Ordanance 1927A1
    rebarreled to .400 CorBon. It would
    certainly be loud.

    OH, FWIW

    The necked down .45 ACP to .357 has been done
    at least a couple of decades ago.

    I think I recall a necked down cartridge
    in a Guns & Ammo article in the late 70s or
    early 80s - a Commander with either a .45
    ACp or a .38 Super necked down to .22 and it
    broke 2,000+ FPS.
     
  22. BigG

    BigG Member

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    I think the other thing besides set back is the cylinder gap allows flame cutting of top strap which would only be worse with a high intensity cartridge.
     
  23. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    The .32-20! I hear it will cut you half in two.
     
  24. bobaloo

    bobaloo Member

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    One reason is that trimming cases is too much work. Just finished reloading 2K of .223 and sure nice to get back to loading .357's, so much easier.
     
  25. unspellable

    unspellable Member

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    Bottle neck setback in a revolver

    The notion of bottle neck case setback in a revolver being a problem is mostly myth. It does occur with certain cases, but there are plenty of case deisgns that will not set back.

    The 22 harvey K'Chuck was a wildcat 22 based on the Hornet case and there was no problem with setback. It inspired the 22 Jet, and as is so often the case, the factory had to fix what wasn't broke. The 22 Jet is a necked down 357 Magnum. That would be OK, except that they set it up with an extremely long tapered shoulder which is the recipe for set back problems.

    There's a long list of bottle necked cases that don't tie up revolvers.

    I shoot the 17 HMR and the 357-44 B&D and have never had any hint of tie up. Used to shoot 32-20 in two different revolvers.

    It should be noted that bottle necked cases are quite common in break open action rifles where set back would tie up the action just as it would in a revolver.
     
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