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Solicitation for new semi-auto sniper rifle

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by SunBear, Nov 18, 2004.

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  1. SunBear

    SunBear member

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    Send it!

    The U.S. Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806 has a requirement for a 7.62mm semi-automatic sniper system (SASS) capable of delivering precision fire primarily on anti-personnel targets out to a range of 1,000 meters. This system must be a man portable, shoulder fired system utilizing military standard 7.62 x 51 mm caliber ammunition but optimized for the open-tip M118LR long range ammunition. Additionally, M993 Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition will be fired based on specific mission requirements. Compatibility with the existing family of military 7.62 x 51mm caliber ammunition is also required. The primary components of the system include a rifle, detachable bipod, hard transport/storage case(s), soft carrying case(s), cleaning/maintenance equipment, and manuals. The weapon will have a flash/sound suppressor, high capacity (up to 20-round) detachable box magazines; rails/mounting surfaces for mounting fire control (optics, backup iron sights and aim- light) systems; variable power optics/electro-optics (in order to engage targets between 50 and 1000 meters); and an accompanying spotting scope with range estimation reticle(s) and a night vision interface. :evil:
     
  2. Daniel Watters

    Daniel Watters Member

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    From what I've seen, the designation XM110 is being reserved for whatever model is eventually selected.
     
  3. BigG

    BigG Member

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    Sounds like the time of the AR10 has arrived. Only took 50 years. ;)
     
  4. F15H

    F15H member

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    +1 for the AR-10!!
     
  5. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    +1 AR-10 or SR-25.

    I wonder if any SCAR-H entries will be interesting.

    -z
     
  6. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

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    I hope they don't evaluate those requirements too strictly:

    "...high capacity (up to 20-round) detachable box magazines..."


    The guys in the field are going to be pretty pissed if a 20-round magazine is all they receive.
     
  7. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    Why not just renovate the M-14 system? It's a well-proven platform, battle tested, and familiar. If they reworked it with all the fancy computer aided design, etc., I'm sure it could soldier on for a long time to come.
     
  8. VG

    VG Member

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    Because Springfield Armory is a museum.... The M14 is still in use, but there are significant shortcomings with it as a long-range sniper weapon system.

    Advances in materials and manufacturing technology will likely yield a lighter, stronger, more easily maintained and more reliable system. Better integration with the latest day/night optics will yield a significant battlefield edge. The M14 versions will be a useful baseline reference, of course.

    A program on the Army's five week Sniper course is showing on tv lately.
     
  9. patent

    patent Member

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    The guys in the field are going to be pretty pissed if a 20-round magazine is all they receive.​

    Why is 20 rounds bad in a sniper rifle? I'm not sure I'd want a big magazine, and its 7.62, so it could get to be a rather large bulky magazine.

    patent
     
  10. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    The 7.62X51mm cartridge is significantly "fatter" than the 5.56X45mm. When you get magazines with much more capacity than 20 rounds, they tend to be so large that the rifle "monopods" on the magazine when shooting from the prone position -- and that isn't conducive to the accuracy you need.
     
  11. patent

    patent Member

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    When you get magazines with much more capacity than 20 rounds, they tend to be so large that the rifle "monopods" on the magazine when shooting from the prone position -- and that isn't conducive to the accuracy you need.​

    That's what I was thinking. I can't think of a reason that a sniper wants a 30 round magazine, just carry the extras that you need.

    patent
     
  12. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    They don't look too bad, I guess, but check this out:
    [​IMG]

    In nice range conditions, it looks very borderline, and that's with a 9-12" Harris. I'm sure they would like the 20-round for DM type work: best to just make both available.
     
  13. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    The Army must not have liked the price of it's previous countersniper autorifle...

    The ArmsTech Interdiction Rifle in .300 Win Mag, as issued to selected Army units during KFOR ops in Kosovo-Sarajevo. It reportedly worked great against the Dragunov-equipped snipers in the apartment towers:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Bigfoot

    Bigfoot Member

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    ^^ Isn't that a BAR action?
     
  15. Trebor

    Trebor Member

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    I interviewed an instructor at the Army Sniper School at Fort Benning earlier this year. We mainly discussed training and equipment issues.

    The war in Iraq has shown the army that they need a "new" kind of sniper. In the past, the training and equipment has focused on the scout/sniper. The emphasis has been on very precise shooting at very long ranges. Rate of fire wasn't a concern. A lot of emphasis was placed on the stalk and on intel gathering. The weapon designed to meet that requirement, the M24 (and Marine M40) is a heavy precision bolt gun capable of very good long range accuracy. It is not good for quick engagements or quick follow up shots and suffers from low (5 round) mag capacity.

    The problem is that is NOT what's needed right now in Iraq. Urban operations are different and require a different kind of "sniper". They also require a greater number of snipers then army doctrine would indicate.

    The army has discovered that urban fighting requires a relatively high number of snipers who are capable of engaging multiple targets, quickly, at relatively close ranges. We're talking about shots ranging from 100 yards out to about 400 yards. The low rate of fire and low mag capacity of the bolt gun are a handicap in this kind of shooting. The level of training needed for the multi-day stalk culminating in the single, 1,000 yard shot, is also not needed.

    The M-14 is being used by both the Marines and Army as a "Designated Marksmans' Rifle" (Marines) and ad-hoc sniper rifle (army). The problems are that there aren't many M-14's left in inventory. The support infrastructure is gone, spare parts are non-existent and there are NO school trained armorers on the M-14 in active duty. The M-14 is finicky and requires more maintainence (armorer level) to keep a consistent high level of accuracy. That's hard to do when parts are scarce and no one is trained to maintain the rifle.

    The SASS specs were put out in an effort to address these problems. The thinking is that probably an AR-10 variant will be picked. The accuracy should be acceptable for the role and the similiarity with the current service rifle will make training and maintainence easier. (There will also be limited parts interchangability. That's always a plus, but isn't a neccessity.)

    The new rifle will go hand-in-hand with new training. We're seeing the return of the "trained rifleman" in the form of the "Designated Marksman." Not everyone will be trained to this standard, but there will be more DM's than fully trained "Scout/Snipers." The training is less involved and produces trained shooters quicker than a full blown sniper school.

    I am surprised to see a 1,000 yard accuracy requirement in those specs. I bet that will other be dropped or that they will de-emphasise that requirement in the end. The current bolt-guns fill that role just fine.
     
  16. VG

    VG Member

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    The Army also defined a Designated Marksman role in the new Stryker units - which have over 100 snipers per Brigade - a huge increase. The designated marksman carries an AR family weapon (trending to the use of 4X optics) or an M24. Global Security has an excerpt of the FM covering the IBXT's TO&E.

    The M24 is the sniper version of the M14.There used to be broad discussions of these issues on the USAIS forums, but a few civilian knuckleheads got in there and public access is now restricted.
     
  17. cheygriz

    cheygriz Member

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    Bushmaster, DPMS and Armalite already offer the perfect rifle right off of the shelf!

    These are basically AR designs with heavy 7.62X51 barrels. They are available with 20 round mags, and more accurate than 90 percent of the sniper rifles used in today's world. And they meet all of the army's requirements except perhaps the 1,000 yard bit.

    The requirement for 1,00 yard engagements is already filled by the Barrett light 50, it is not needed in a .308. This is a throwback to the old ordnance board 19th century thinking.

    An Armalite AR-10, or the equivalent from Bushmaster or DPMS can be had ready for delivery today, for under $1200 per copy if the arse-whole bureaucratic dinosaurs would just get out of the way.

    (last sentence edited out by moderator)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2004
  18. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Better an AR based action than the M-14. The M-14 is too high maintenance and has more moving parts than the AR. With fewer moving parts, the AR is more accurate too. I'd go with the SR-25 (so long as it has the Remington barrel).
     
  19. threefeathers

    threefeathers Member

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    Joe Rustick at Arms Tech put out a great rifle built on the BAR, He had a progressive firled barrel, a really effective can, and Kelly Mac built a stock based on the A-3 stock. This is a hell of a rifle. Joe also has a heck of a rifle based on the M-14 that is really modernized, new McMillian stock and a Nightforce scope, short and effective can.
     
  20. RevDisk

    RevDisk Member

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    Sarajevo is in Bosnia, which is SFOR. We didn't have too much of a problem with Dragunov snipers down in Kosovo, that I recall. Besides, we just used the Barrett in KFOR. :evil:

    "Now, I'm not a good shot. But these are really big bullets." - Hellboy
     
  21. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    Bigfoot, yes it was a BAR action, chambered in .300 Win Mag.

    As Threefeathers mentioned, it was the ArmsTech contract for a long-range sniper system with ballistics superior to the 7.62x51 NATO round. Several were built and issued to select Army units, who still have them last I heard.

    As for the Barrett .50 Brownings filling the 1000-yard requirement, that's a common misconception. .50 BMG rifles are specifically designated as "Anti-materiel" weapons, not anti-personnel. They're issued for use against hard targets, like vehicles, etc. The fact that they will occasionally eliminate a soft target is just a byproduct of the hard target interdiction, as far as JAG and others who work the Rules of Engagement legalese will tell you. ;)
     
  22. artherd

    artherd member

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    Oh, if only they weren't limited to 7.62x51mm...

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, semi .338Lapua (my bolt AR-30 .338LM absolutely destroys 3/4" plate steel at 500yards. Clean through with plenty of secondary fragmentation. 'Cover' becomes mere concealment.)
     
  23. Richard G

    Richard G Member

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    I'll take my M14 over an AR any day. The blowback that dirties an AR hampers reliability far more than any problem an M14 developes.

    I can put 1000 rounds through my M1a without cleaning it. Do that with an AR and see what happens.
     
  24. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    My experience with the M14 has always been positive. I frankly don't think the AR series is in the same league.
     
  25. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    My AR's regularly go for thousands of rounds without cleaning, and they run fine. If your don't, it's possible they are defective.

    The "blowback" issue keeps coming with AR's, but it hasn't been a problem since the powder debacle in VN. The amount of fouling proper ammo produces in the action is inconsequential compared to environmental dirt/sand ingress into the weapon like it does on any rifle.

    -z
     
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