Some long overdue common sense for firearm owners.

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I have several points so bear with me.

1) It seems like hypocrisy, when a person advocates teaching a new person about guns and getting others interested, then he/she rails against putting gun safety, tips, techniques, facts, etc., on a new media that is (for whatever reason) more used today and more user friendly (especially for my generation).

2) There is a vast difference between ignorance and stupidity. A lot of the posts here rail on stupid people, and that is fine. I don't believe this video idea is aimed at stupid people, just the ignorant.

3) There are a lot of ignorant people out there. A lot of you keep comparing guns to cars and alcohol, but cars and alcohol are a lot more a part of the younger generation's culture than guns (at least real guns that aren't on TV). I know a lot of you grew up with guns. You were taught about guns from early ages and have taught this to your children. Consider yourself lucky. This isn't the norm these days. Part of the reason that "common sense" is lacking for some is that guns are simply not that common for many youths growing up today. What do you say to someone that wants to learn about guns who doesn't have friends or family around to turn to and may be timid to walk into their local gun range asking noob questions? Why not provide them a well packaged start on gun basics , etc.,(edit: in a media that they are very comfortable with)?

4) Repackaging and compiling gun info onto a new media is not "gun control." Honestly, some of you guys have your tin foil hats too close. This is a measure that can put us (gun community) on (if even a small scale) the offense instead of always being on the defense. What is wrong with manufacturers, gun communities, and gun lobbiest going the "extra mile" (of their own accord, of course) to get "our" message out. Of course, it needs to be done well (i.e. not someone's tin foil hat rant about government conspiracies, etc.).

5) There are a lot of things that can be "shown" on a video a lot easier than "told" in a book/manual. Why not take advantage of this?

6) A case in point: myself. I read both of my manuals through and through. Both were informative. Both were a bit dry. On the other hand, I have learned a lot more about guns, safety, techniques, ideology etc., etc., here at THR. Did I seek out THR? No. I stumbled onto it from a different site while looking for some info on point shooting. Why was I looking for info on point shooting? Because the dealer that I bought from was a Special Forces guy and advised me to learn this as well as sighted shooting. If these circumstances had not come about, I may not have been aware of the wealth of information that was out there and that I didn't know.

Let the flaming ensue!;)

java
 
Responses like this make me angry. Reading news stories about the dangers of Mexican carry certainly raised my awareness. The dangers of a cheap holsters did as well.
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You might not like the answer, but he's right.

The rules for gun handling are out there, people simply ignore them or get complancent. You can make all the pamphlets and DVDs and instructional videos that you want and people will STILL simply ignore them or get complacent or just plain screw up. We've seen it happen with responcible gun owners on this very board.

One of your own examples are an example of this also. The guy with the gun in the backpack, he had just graduated the police academy. I'm sure he was taught gun safety, but he still ignored it.

You can't stop that. No matter what you do.
 
There is a vast difference between ignorance and stupidity.

javacodeman, now that distinction I agree with. For those people who are ignorant of firearms and proper operation and etiquette, information should be made available. But if you look in most manuals you can find that information in abundance, unless you get the firearm used. Therre are other avenues, several of which were named in this thread. Perhaps more dealers could have a list of information sources on the counter, or on leaflets/handouts?

jm
 
hmmm...

Javaman...yer' absolutely right...

Sometimes I have to slap myself for not thinking like a grown-up...I frequently ask myself how so many can be so uninformed.

My 14YO frequently laughs at me when I ask him stupid questions about his games and electronic stuff that I don't get...

/\/\/\...It'd be great if DVD or CD info was available to everyone that wanted it. For a group that hasn't been raised around firearms, it would be great if we had accurate public information TV...

...oops...we already have it...

So...what's really needed is for young, motivated, techno-savvy folks to get into just that niche.

The info is out there and has been for years...it would be helpful to utilize current technology and get those interested in actually working on this to commit their young, savvy selves to that end...


...any volunteers?
 
1) It seems like hypocrisy, when a person advocates teaching a new person about guns and getting others interested, then he/she rails against putting gun safety, tips, techniques, facts, etc., on a new media that is (for whatever reason) more used today and more user friendly (especially for my generation).
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I'd like to first point out that I'm 25 and didn't grow up around guns so I think we are talking similar generations. I have no problem with this, I'm sure there are lots of DVD's like this out there already. If I google "gun safety dvd" it appears as though they are easy enough to find. At some point I think it has to come down to personal responsibility. I don't want to pay an extra $3 even with every gun I buy to pay for including this information. If someone is about to cram a loaded gun down their pants though they would be wise to research it a little. As it stands now all anyone from our generation needs to learn gun safety is 5 minutes with google. If they don't care to read the manual that came with the gun though I doubt they will go to that length.

Part of the reason that "common sense" is lacking for some is that guns are simply not that common for many youths growing up today. What do you say to someone that wants to learn about guns who doesn't have friends or family around to turn to and may be timid to walk into their local gun range asking noob questions? Why not provide them a well packaged start on gun basics , etc.,(edit: in a media that they are very comfortable with)?
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Go with google, friends, family, or suck it up and take a class. If they are really so timid gun safety dvd's are already available for purchase.

Here's what I would suggest then if you're really interested in doing this. Go to one of the big names in training classes today and get them to produce a safety training video gratis. In exchange for producing the video they will not only be doing a service as a friend of the 2nd amendment but will be getting the opportunity to get their name otu there to help sell their books and videos. Next start a group that will take donations to cover costs of duplicating these and mailling them and make them free upon request. Also offer a download on the site to lower costs. Everyone has free access to the video, no additional costs passed onto the consumer. I doubt it'll prevent any accidents, but it'll be what you want.
 
I'm sure there are lots of DVD's like this out there already. If I google "gun safety dvd" it appears as though they are easy enough to find.
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Noted: Quite possibly trying to reinvent the wheel here. Maybe it is already out there and I (and others) didn't think to look for it nor have been made aware of it.

As it stands now all anyone from our generation needs to learn gun safety is 5 minutes with google. If they don't care to read the manual that came with the gun though I doubt they will go to that length.
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There are points about safety (and etiquette) that aren't covered in the four rules or manuals. I would invision the ideal DVD to cover situations that a noob just wouldn't even consider to let them learn the easy way. Additionally, I don't know what the OP had in mind, but an ideal DVD to me would cover more than just gun safety. How about cleaning your gun? I was nervous the first time I took apart my H&K (an easy gun to clean) as I had never done the like before. A simple fifteen minute segment showing you want to expect would be nice. I know that cleaning a gun is old hat to most of you, and you wouldn't find that interesting/informational. Not so with the noob. How about acceptable and unacceptable wear on a gun like a 5 min segment devoted to "this is what you can expect--anything outside of this should be taken to your local gunsmith." A segment like this would have saved my a 40 minute trip both ways to the only gunsmith around that I know/trust. Granted, I know now, but if it can be made easier then why not?

Again, I wouldn't want to see this be mandated or forced on any gun entity. I just thought it was a good idea. And again, I agree that stupid cannot be combated and that personnal responsibility should be required, but I see this as just another tool to inform, IMO.

The info is out there and has been for years...it would be helpful to utilize current technology and get those interested in actually working on this to commit their young, savvy selves to that end...


...any volunteers?
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Is this a hint?:)

java
 
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I don't want to pay an extra $3 even with every gun I buy to pay for including this information.
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I buy blank DVD's for .39 cents. $3 is way too high. If the company is too cheap to spend that much they could slap a piece of paper with a URL on it for a free video download.
 
In exchange for producing the video they will not only be doing a service as a friend of the 2nd amendment but will be getting the opportunity to get their name otu there to help sell their books and videos.
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See, this is the kind of response I was hoping for. A lot of things can be done with a DVD and I guarantee you a well made and fun to watch DVD will be far more effective than any book. This isn't just about safety. RKBA info, books, videos of gun events all sorts of things can be slapped on. There is soo much potential if people actually put their minds to it. I mean you can take video clips of news broadcasters saying stuff about guns and then debunking it. That kind of footage tends to hit people a lot harder than anything you can read in print.
 
Bullfrogken,

There's no nice way to say it, but you need to hear it. I suggest you aren't as competent and safe a gun handler as you believe yourself to be.
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Well I certainly didn't claim to be a NRA instructor. I just handle long guns and those are pretty simple and straight forward when it comes to safety. But common sense tells me you don't hand random strangers loaded guns. Apparently there is more than one person in this thread that disagrees.

Maybe its a lack of clear communication over the internet, but the way you've discussed this doesn't come across like you've learned how to safely pass a gun to another. OK. Yes. I admit I'm a little peeved at the condescention here. And I'm not sure you're in a position to be reprimanding an NRA certified instructor.
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So do you think it's ok to hand a stranger a loaded weapon without making sure they know how to handle it? Since you are criticizing me this certainly seems to be your position.

And honestly I really don't give a damn what anyone's title is. I will not hesitate to vocalize my disagreement with anyone that advocates handing random strangers a loaded gun without testing their gun knowledge.
 
wacki said: So do you think it's ok to hand a stranger a loaded weapon without making sure they know how to handle it? Since you are criticizing me this certainly seems to be your position.

And honestly I really don't give a damn what anyone's title is. I will not hesitate to vocalize my disagreement with anyone that advocates handing random strangers a loaded gun without testing their gun knowledge.
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Why don't you go back, read what I wrote once again, and review my position on handing a gun to someone.


You don't have to care about a title. He's got experience, and training, and offers it to others. You certainly don't have to respect that, either, but don't expect it when you don't extend it to others. And I'm quite sure he doesn't advocate handing a loaded gun to anyone.
 
Ok, I have watched this thread long enough.

Wacki comes up with an idea to increase the level of safe gun handling in the country. It would provide another form of introducing people to firearms and teaching them safety that would be easier to learn from and more enjoyable than a manual. He never said it had to be required by law, but simply a way to get our message out to a larger audience.

Wacki immediately goes on the defensive because the first couple posts all but accuse hime of being a Brady troll, and he spends the next 2 pages defending more attacks on himself than his idea.

I suppose you guy's are right, there is enough safety information out there. All those people who are killed or injured in firearms acciddents every year are just too stupid to learn. I guess all we can do is wait for Darwin to take care of them.:rolleyes:

Also there is no need to bring new people shooting, the community is large enough. After all, the gun controll activist are only looking out for our safety and the fewer gun owners, the cheaper gun prices will be. Why reach out to new shooters in an attractive way? Most people get eveything they need to know about guns from TV and movies, and those who are serrious about guns will spend their time pouring over dry manuals and internet forums full of right-wing nut jobs and tin-foil hats.:rolleyes:

Also I shouldn't have to tell a Mod not to hijack a thread to get into a discussion about someone's gun handling; either PM the person, or start another thread. Wacki's story about his friend was meant to illustrate the need for more gun safety information. The fact that Wacki was confused on the proper way to recieve a firearm (and you were Wacki) simply underscores the need for more effective imformation.

I can understand resistance to more government regulation, what I can't understand is resistance to what could be a valuable and effective tool for introducing and teaching new members of the firearms community.
 
This is done in California already. It is part of the Handgun Safety Certificate course you are required to complete, which requires reading the book you have to buy because the test includes state specific laws and opinions not all standard. The majority of it is common sense, it is very similar to a written test for drivers. However it is one more state controlled license requirement that only lasts for 5 years and requires renewal and permission from the state to excercise your second amendment right.
Next I expect a similar course for how to properly excercise my first amendment right. Something about which phrases may offend certain people, a list of prohibited terms deemed unproductive or unnecessary in conversation including 'assault' words, as well as a short demonstration of proper language skills. This will grant me permission and license me to excercise my 'right' to speak about subjects otherwise forbidden for a period not to exceed 5 years.
 
In support of Wacki

I often see violations of the 4 basic rules. The last time I was at a range I had a woman point a cocked pistol at me to show me the type of gun she had, this was minutes after an instructor had left her to practice on her own.

I am not sure about additional safety instruction with the gun, as most gun manuals are so full of them they take up half the booklet. Maybe putting the 4 rules on the exterior of the gun case would drill them into people's heads more. I don't think this should be a law, but might be a good thing to do.

Perhaps also when you go to shoot at a range you should have to show knowledge of the 4 rules and not just sign a waiver. Once again this shouldn't be a law, but would be nice.

Lastly, whenever you take someone out to shoot for the first time please take safety seriously, it will still be fun. I have taken many people to shoot their first rounds and not only did they love it, but felt more comfortable because they knew what they were doing. By minimizing the safety risk you are doing a a great disservice.
 
Why would you even entertain the thought of handing someone a loaded gun? It doesn't matter if the recepient knows how to handle it. When I give a handgun to my pistolsmith, I know Jim knows how to handle it, but I wouldn't dream of offering it to him loaded, let alone unopened and cleared.
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When I give someone a gun, I always make sure it is unloaded. But when someone hands me a gun, I really don't care if it's unloaded or not. It makes no difference. Why should it? I'm going to check it anyway. Think about it...
 
Thefabulousfink,

I support the promotion of safe gun handling. I also believe it is learned best through mentorship; everything else is a poor substitute.

DVD's are excellent mediums. I think they're much better than the internet, or a brochure. They also widely exist. The NRA has conducted safety programs for generations. They had videotapes decades ago, and I bet they still do even though DVD's are the common technology.


I resent the implication that the gun community somehow failed wacki because we didn't search him out and hold his hand when he bought his gun.


Frankly, I don't know what he wants. At first, it seems to be gun safety, then, a concealed carry primer, next its gun stats to battle anti-gunner arguments. And for a new gun owner to start off by telling us we are long overdue for common sense, or lack good gun handling skills, or don't reach out well enough . . . Yes, I take offense.
 
wacki,
I have read everything you have posted in this thread and no matter how hard you try to deny it, you are a passive aggressive gun control advocate. You are playing the role of a friend but when read carefully the truth is there. You truly think guns are the problem and would rather they were out of the hands of the common folk. People like you are more dangerous than the anti-gun people that come right at you!
 
Thefabulousfink,

The fact that Wacki was confused on the proper way to recieve a firearm (and you were Wacki) simply underscores the need for more effective imformation.
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OK, where in this thread did I tell you how I reacted? What exactly did I do wrong? Please inform me of the mistakes I made when he handed me the loaded gun.
 
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https://secure.prodregister.com/smith&wesson/

Smith & Wesson has a cd, they give to you when you join the "Smith & Wesson club 1852" (its free) with other things for joining.


Companies do give safety/operation instructions in their "owners booklet". Smith & Wesson does. People (the new owner) should read these booklets.
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These responses are getting annoying. This thread isn't just about safety. This thread is about a wide variety of topics. So Smith and Wesson hands out safety CD's. GREAT! Do they spend anytime debunking common anti-gun myths on that CD? Do they spend anytime talking about how to promote recreational firearm use? Do they spend any time discussing how to defend the 2A from overzealous legislatures?

I'm guessing the answer to all of these is no.
 
BullfrogKen,

Frankly, I don't know what he wants. At first, it seems to be gun safety, then, a concealed carry primer, next its gun stats to battle anti-gunner arguments.
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Well I'm not sure how many times I have to say this but it would be nice to have all of those things on one single DVD. From the very first post I made in this thread:

Heck gun companies can spend 1/2 of the DVD talking up their company and the other 1/2 of the DVD as part of a standardized NRA/THR sponsored safety/anti-anti course.

Apparently that's not clear enough so I will list them out in an itemized fashion. I will quote ArfinGreebly's post which was the 8th one in this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2947367&postcount=8

I will add a few thing in red.

You buy your new rifle or pistol.

You get home, and in the box with it is a disk that has on it

1) the manual for that piece, with parts list, in PDF,
2) the company's catalog in PDF,
3) a video demonstrating proper shooting technique, prefaced by THE 4 RULES,
4) a video demonstrating proper cleaning and maintenance, including any adjustments, and THE 4 RULES,
5) for hunters, advice on field dressing the various things one hunts,
6) the addresses and phone numbers for those outfits that do professional training.
7) A PDF from gunfacts.info
8) NRA PDF
9) An easy to watch entertaining video made by the NRA that is similar to Penn & Tellers: Bullsh*t! on gun control. Have this video be a lot higher content than Penn & Teller by including lots of statistics.
10) anything else the gun people want to get out.
11) Interviews with John Lott where he discusses his books

This would, in fact, be a serious marketing tool.
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All of those things *COULD* be on one DVD.
 
ArchAngelCD,

You truly think guns are the problem and would rather they were out of the hands of the common folk. People like you are more dangerous than the anti-gun people that come right at you!
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I shoot skeet/trap, I support legalization of suppressors, and I'm upset about the Cook County laws because I want guns to be banned? I hope you realize this makes no sense.
 
I resent the implication that the gun community somehow failed wacki because we didn't search him out and hold his hand when he bought his gun.
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This is nothing more than the angst of the young and recently converted, I would imagine.

Ford is not responsible to teach people how to drive. McDonalds does not have a need to give away gym memberships to justify their corporate existence. Home Depot doesn't have a moral obligation to ensure that I know how to climb up the ladder that they sold me. In each case, the consumer has a basic requirement to understand the nature and intent of the object that they're purchasing, and to act with some minimal sense of responsibility. In none of these cases would we consider the manufacturer or industry as a whole to be somehow derelict for not having crammed consumer product safety or liability facts down the throats of potential consumers.

This thread isn't about common sense. It's more likely about compensating for the very lack of it by externalizing personal insecurities.

About four dozen posts ago, Wacki, I challenged you to actually take specific constructive action in regards to your concerns. Have you done anything about that, or do you just wish to sit here and berate us?
 
Bulfrog ken,

I resent the implication that the gun community somehow failed wacki because we didn't search him out and hold his hand when he bought his gun.
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Oh please. Stop being so melodramatic. As long as I'm able to shoot trap/skeet and my bolt action rifles I'm happy. I've never wanted the gun community to hold my hand and I've never asked for it. I want them to debunk the anti-gun misinformation campaign.

rbernie,

This thread isn't about common sense. It's about compensating for the very lack of it by externalizing personal insecurities.
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Well to me common sense says "if you are losing the information war, you might want to switch directions". And in Cook County Illinois, it would appear to me they lost the information war. Even at my local gun club, it's pretty obvious the gun rights people are losing the information war at least in the statistical arena. I'm trying to help you guys but apparently many members of THR would rather flame me then brainstorm better ways of getting the information out.
 
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