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some misconceptions about 357 and 44 in carbines

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by trekker73, Nov 21, 2022.

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  1. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    I disagree with that. I hunt with my father in law and brother in law and nearly the whole property is thick tamarac and red willows with waist high slough grass. You typically need to be standing within 5 feet of the deer to find it. Finding a deer that ran even 100 yards often takes an hour or two, and with no blood trail sometimes more. That's no big deal to do once, we are well accustomed to it, but we typically take 10-12 deer a year between us and that gets to be real chore if you have to do it more than 2 or 3 times a season. Ever since I started using big bores I really don't have that problem compared to the 25, 27, 30 calibers we've used in the past.

    This one my brother in law took a couple year ago is one of the rare ones that didn't immediately dive into the slough when he was shot. He was shot at about 100 yards through both lungs with a 150 grain 270. There was not one single drop of blood on the fresh snow. We tracked him about 200 yards through the woods by hood print, try to pick his tracks out from among about 30 other deer's tracks and the first spot of blood was 10 feet before he turned off the trail and layed down between two big fallen trees where we couldn't see him

    image.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
  2. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    I shot a decent sized doe double lung with a 300 win mag at 70 yds and was less than impressed with the blood trail. It had a 2” diameter entrance and 3” diameter exit wound. I don’t know on what planet those types of wounds don’t leave pools of blood.

    A similar doe shot at 40 yds double lung with a 44 Mag rifle left significantly more blood on a similarly long run.

    Every shot and every deer is different.
     
  3. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    It is legal to hunt deer with a 357 pistol in some areas. My 16" 1894 marlin only gets 1750 with a 158 jsp with #9. Any deer I could see in peeps I'd shoot. An optic would give me more range than I want. My 30-30 has a 20" barrel so it's already got a head start. I'd feel good about using the both inside 100. I've got other options for longer rage.
     
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  4. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    I've had a Marlin 357 Mag 1894C (18.5" barrel) since about 1980. With appropriate loads and bullets, is does not like cast bullets due to the micro-groove rifling, I get good groups out to 100 yards with peep sights.

    I'd be comfortable taking a deer out to no more than 100 yards but realistically, 80 yards or kless woukd be better.

    I know a 30-30 would be more effective out to a bit longer ranges due to higher velocities and a bit better bullet ballistics.

    I'm new to 44 Magnum getting my first 44 Magnum revolver only a few years before the pandemic. So, I do not have first hand experience with full power loads for deer hunting with a carbine.
     
  5. trekker73

    trekker73 Member

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    1. Almost all can be scoped actually, some in the normal position, some in the scout position. And what semi-autos cant be scoped?

    4. A 200xtp or 158xtp at 1900fps when zeroed at 100 yards is rising an inch at 75 and only dropping 4" at 150 yards. A lot of the people making comments on these calibres oughtta read this reply twice.

    200XTP and 240xtp in a 44 mag have similar BC to a 150 grain interlock in 30-30 too. Not to say the 44 mag is a better long range cartridge but if its arriving with similar energy to 120 yards and a much fatter bullet, I'm happy.

    5. Not even sure what that means- heres me thinking animals are shot at all ranges between "short and long" lol.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
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  6. Mosin77

    Mosin77 Member

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    Fair enough. You can scope just about anything.

    What I meant on point #5 is that, realistically, there seem to be 2 sorts of hunters. Those who hunt in the dense, forested stuff, in the south or the northeast, where even 50 yards might be a long shot, in which case a scope is hardly necessary, a light carbine really shines, and any of these calibers will do the job just fine… and folks who live in the west/Midwest who are hunting across fields or in much more open country and want to be sure they have “enough gun” for their chosen hunting terrain. Mostly the scoped bolt gun rules here.
     
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  7. trekker73

    trekker73 Member

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    Mosin77, yes agree neither calibre is good for wide open country and not trying to make them out to be an all round option.
     
  8. Remington1911

    Remington1911 Member

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    Interesting concept. I don't agree with it....but it is interesting.

    I also find it interesting that energy amounts to a hill of beans.....

    I had other things in here, but it will be taken as snarky so.....yea I don't think so in any way shape or form.
     
  9. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Real world results and science derived there-from support it. In inelastic (real world) collisions, kinetic energy is not conserved. Momentum, however, IS conserved.

    Why is it that a 243win is less apt to penetrate through a deer than a 45-70? At 250yrds, a 243win 100 Interlock is hitting at 2414fps, which yields 1294 ft.lbs., while at the same distance, a 45-70 with a 325 FTX is connecting at 1192fps, good for only 1025 ft.lbs. So why the difference in penetration for the 45-70? Momentum. The 45cal slug hits with 55.3 lb ft/sec, while the 6mm bullet only carries 34.5 lb ft/sec - 60% greater potential.

    Inevitably, kinetic energy is related to momentum, as both are calculated from mass and velocity, but KE overvalues velocity in real-world collisions by unduly squaring the term. Which is why we see folks putting favor for the .30-30 in this kind of discussion, and for some reason, try to limit the 44mag to some imaginary ceiling of 50-75yrds, when it will kill cleanly well past 200yrds…

    Folks simply can’t let go of biases, despite the eggshell thin logic which supports them. Why do we care so much about kinetic energy? Because it’s a big number? Because it’s printed on the box? Why are we convinced leverguns are 100yrd rifles? Because the one type of factory ammo our fathers shot under iron sights didn’t group worth a piss? Because irons are too hard to shoot past 100yrds on game which don’t offer a solid aiming reference? Why do folks ignore the fact 250-300grn 44 and 45 cal bullets often have higher ballistic coefficients than blunt nosed 30 cal bullets used in 30-30? Why do folks forget 20” barrels add a lot of speed onto revolver cartridges? Why does a .2G1 BC 44cal bullet at 1800fps get noses thumbed at it for sub-100 yard capacity when a .19G1 30 cal at 2250fps is lorded as superior, and capable of 200-250?

    Folks simply can’t let go of biases.
     
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  10. KansasTrapper77

    KansasTrapper77 Member

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    To add mine to the pile.:D

    I have zero interest in the .30-30 if I want a longer range rifle I break out a bolt gun with a standard action length cartridge. I personally feel like .30-30 is anemic and is carried by past laurels. That is my personal bias.

    So when I compare a .357 Mag carbine to a .30-30 around 100 yards I’m saying “Look, this pistol cartridge performs just as well at 100 yards and its more multi-purpose. So I can have one gun and cartridge that does multiple jobs.”

    If you like .30-30s shoot’em.

    If you like .357 Carbines great!

    I think they’ll both get the job done in their respective areas.
     
  11. CraigC

    CraigC Sixgun Nut

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    It's not a concept. A great many people believe the way you do, as handgun hunters we've been fighting it for decades. This idea that more foot pounds equals deader critters. It's totally bunk. Energy was pushed as a tool for the industry to sell velocity. To create and perpetuate the Weatherby mentality, that faster is better. The problem is that the energy formula exaggerates the importance of velocity, it is squared in the equation. Mass is not, while bullet diameter and construction are ignored. In the real world, mass, diameter and construction are by far more important than velocity. I can debunk energy in one example.

    .223 = 55gr at 3200fps generates 1200ft-lbs.
    .44Mag = 355gr at 1250fps generates 1200ft-lbs.

    Is the .223 just as effective on game as the .44Mag? Or would one be suitable for critters MUCH larger, heavier and meaner? So in this example, what do foot pounds tell us? Nothing. It was never a proper measure of a cartridge's terminal effect.

    Further, all we can do is calculate how much energy is generated at a given velocity (distance). There is no way to know how much is used or lost in friction, expansion, tissue destruction, what is absorbed by the target and what is spent on whatever the bullet hits when/if it exits. Energy is just a lame attempt to put an easy answer on a very complicated question. We'd all be better off if it never entered the discussion because it is just a useless number.

    1400ft-lbs made broken shoulders and full penetration with a 1" diameter wound tract.

    IMG_066613.jpg
     
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  12. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    To expand on this. While kinetic energy isn't conserved, energy is but it can change forms some of the kinetic energy is changed into heat energy and some into sound energy.
    So in Varmint's 243 vs 45/70 example the noise of the 243 bullet will likely be louder and the bullets temperature will be hotter these factors do nada in stopping the deer.
    Tying energy to performance is largely the tail wagging the dog.
     
  13. Plastikosmd

    Plastikosmd Member

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    Put the flying thing through a vital structure
    Heck, flying pointy sticks work or spherical balls propelled by bird poop and brimstone/lamp black
     
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  14. Beck

    Beck Member

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    Me thinks we've created yet another thread with the same misconceptions everyone had before this thread existed. :cool:

    My kingdom for a definitive answer... but definitive does not exist on the Interweb. ;)
     
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  15. N555

    N555 Member

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    The 44mag rifle, with rifle handloads at close range is devastating. Definitely worse than a 30-30.
    But times are changing for me. Now my 30-30 is a 1.5moa rifle on a typical day, zeroed for 150 yards and will take shots out to 250yd with FTX bullets over leverevolution in my hand loads.
    Not something I would try with a 44mag.
     
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  16. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    I guess velocity doesn't matter. We should all go back to black powder. By this reasoning there is no difference between a 300 Win Mag and a 30-30.
    Why hot load a 45/70 when you can get the same results with a .45 ACP.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
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  17. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    I can understand it in your circumstances. No blood and other deer tracks really is very hard. A heart shot would have stopped him sooner but it can be tough in thick cover to get the right shot. I would think that 270 would leave an exit wound.
     
  18. Plastikosmd

    Plastikosmd Member

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    ^ now your talking! (Prefer holy black) lol
     
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  19. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    In answer to your question, As in water, the faster the bullet, the greater the resistance, so aside from momentum a faster bullet will often stop faster as more energy is released into the target. Also the faster bullet relies on deformation to release it's energy adding to this effect. As you said the bigger bullet if it doesn't deform much will pass through. Most centerfire bullets are plenty powerful enough to kill deer. It's a matter of preference what you use.
     
  20. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    With all due respect my friend.....they have been making the trapper version of the SRC for many years.
    20211221_085811.jpg 20211221_085604.jpg
    Also youth model 336s
    I also think that there's no way that a .357. 44. 45colt. Or .41 mag will hang with a .30-30 for very long.
    ;)
     
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  21. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    This is like the old wives’ tale that hot water will freeze outside faster than cold water…

    A faster bullet losing speed eventually becomes a slow bullet.

    Impulse - the rate of change of momentum - will only change, only increase, if the bullet is influencing MORE mass or transferring momentum faster. A faster bullet of smaller caliber may not be affecting more mass faster, for example, a 44cal bullet has 95% greater cross-sectional area than a 30 cal bullet, but we can be pretty sure a 30-30 impacting at 2250fps isn’t doing 95% greater transverse speed to make it contact as much mass in the same time… so it’s a pretty safe bet the 44 is transferring momentum faster than the 30-30.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
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  22. Ranger99

    Ranger99 Member

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    Pretty much ^ ^ ^ IT^ ^ ^right there
     
  23. Ranger99

    Ranger99 Member

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    I try not to have this discussion anymore.
    After some years of shooting arrows
    through and at deer, I feel it gave me
    a clearer outlook on what it takes to
    render a deer to my possession in my
    area. After you kill your first archery deer,
    anything that makes a loud noise when
    you pull the trigger is like a death ray.
    I'll only add that many of those who
    feel like the old chamberings I use are
    inadequate and run out of steam at
    that 100 yard mark either have no
    real world experience using those
    for hunting, and/or read too many
    magazines and/or watch too many
    yoofloob videos.
    Nothing beats real world real time
    real life experience
     
  24. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Also with all due respect - the trajectories of the 44mag and 45colt, and even the 41mag all hang pretty close with most 30-30 loads. Bullets in the .18-.2 ballpark at 1750-1900fps, not falling far behind the 30-30 with .17-.2 at 2200-2300. Without the Hornady FTX bullets, the 30-30 really doesn’t have much of an edge, and at the distances we’re shooting, none of the trajectory really makes much difference - a handful of inches… 1 mil hold versus 2 mils at 200yrds… whoop…
     
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  25. CraigC

    CraigC Sixgun Nut

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    It does matter. It just doesn't matter enough to multiply it by itself in an effort to measure a cartridge's effectiveness. The energy formula when applied to terminal ballistics exaggerates its importance.
     
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