some misconceptions about 357 and 44 in carbines

Nice looking rifle! but the 92 action feels smaller and more svelte than the 94 action if only marginally with similar barrel and stock.. It is also size right for the 357, 44, 45 cartridges. The 336 action has always felt like a chuck compared to either of the Winchester actions to me.



I am happy to concede the 30-30 is much easier to shoot further and carry that lethality down range better in most cases.

 

Perhaps I outstretched my reach on the .44.
I still don't think that a suped-up .357 will compare favorably at 100yds to a similar weight bullet from a similar length carbine.
Capacity goes to the .357 carbine.
Versatility goes to the .357.
Range goes to the .30-30

FWIW I have both..
1894c Marlin .357
1894SRC Trapper Winchester .30-30
Plus...
Marlin 336 .30-30 rifle

 

Velocity doesn’t matter so much that it should be squared.

The 45-70 vs. 45 acp is an absurdism, but I suppose it’s apt, and working to counter the point you’re trying to make - as the smaller is only pushing 100-200grn less bullet at only around half of the speed… these share similar bore diameters, so these ARE relatively similar - a lot faster and a lot more bullet, all of which improves momentum and sectional density. Double the bullet at double the speed - momentum suggests that would mean 4x better killing efficacy on hot 45-70’s than on 44mags. Kinetic energy, however, suggests 45-70 would kill 8x better than 45acp…

The 300wm versus 30-30 is likely quite apt as well, but again, not how you’re trying to imply - what can we hunt at the short ranges we use the 30-30 to hunt which is more dead when hit with a 300wm? The 300wm only buys trajectory over the 30-30, not really any killing efficacy. But these are pushing similar bullets, so increasing velocity is linearly increasing momentum… pretty easy comparison, adding 30% velocity there increases momentum by 30%. This 30% increase in velocity, however, adds over 70% greater kinetic energy - do you think it’s really fair to say the 300wm kills 70% better, by any standard, than the 30-30?

44mag and 30-30, however, are sufficiently dissimilar in bullet weight that folks get confused by the value of velocity and corresponding Kinetic Energy printed on the box. I shared the differences above - for nearly matching KE, the momentum on the 44mag is over 50% increased over the 30-30, hence why we have greater ability with 30-30 to kill larger game and penetrate farther, more reliably.

In other words, velocity matters, but it only matters ONCE. Not “velocity times,” which is the scaling factor on velocity which is used in kinetic energy, and why it’s not a good measure of killing performance. M*V is a major difference from 1/2*M*V^2. Velocity doesn’t deserve that exponent.

 

It did exit but just bled internally. Just the way it goes sometimes. Of all the calibers I've ever hunted with, my 444 marlin is the grand champion of letting the blood out. If I were hunting on a bean field I wouldn't be worried about it and I would just use my 25-06. That rifle has always given me about a 75% chance of a bang flop, but when they don't fall on the spot I typically get little to no blood trail on heart and lung shot so its fallen out of my favor.

Yep, really have to observe a lot of deer getting shot and the results to draw patterns. I started hunting the 25-06 noted above and like the first 6 or 7 deer I shot with it were all bang flops. I thought that was the hottest thing around until the law of averages started going the other way and I quickly noticed that when they don't bang flop, the result is not as I desired. We shoot a lot of deer in our party and I help recover most of them so I've observed the results of a couple hundred deer being shot and developed opinions that I hold pretty strongly too.

 

I’d agree, and both physics and real-world game hunting agree to boot.

The 357mag is a pipsqueak among magnums, and doesn’t really deserve a seat at the table for the “revolver carbine vs. rifle cartridge levergun” debate. But 44’s and 45’s, even 41’s earn their place in the debate.

Dirty 30 shooters can hang their hats on flatter trajectory, but that’s really the only advantage - and in the 200yrd game, it’s not substantial.

 

While I agree the numbers favor the 30-30 I also own a 1894C 357 and a 94 trapper length 30-30 both wear a Williams receiver sight and I just think there really isn't a shot that I would take with the 30-30 that I would pass up with the 357.
Maybe if my 30-30 was a 20", but even then the likelihood that the deer is gonna be just out of reach for the 357 and not beyond what I feel comfortable with irons is rare.

 

Not for nothin’, but…

The 444 Marlin, 45-70, and 450 Marlin are hanging out at 405 WCF’s house while 375win and 35 Rem are hiding on his back porch coughing and choking on their first cigarettes, all of them grinning at the conversation we’ve had here…

Just sayin…

 

truth

 

The problem with forums is I reckon about only 50% of folks commenting on any thread have used the calibre in question on game. They are just shooting the bull referencing the last thing they read. Now it could be more than that on some threads but I would not even be suprised if its only 25-30% on others.

 

There's a good point to be made in there. The .45-70's biggest advantage over the .45ACP is not velocity. It's bullet weight. A .45-70's 500gr bullet at the .45ACP's velocity of 900fps is going to be more effective on large critters than the .45ACP's 230gr bullet at the .45-70's velocity.

 

Neither momentum nor kinetic energy is a proper measure of killing power. Using kinetic energy as a yardstick means a 16" .223 carbine will take down big game as well as a .475" 420 gr LFN at 1050 fps. On the other hand using momentum you would think a .455 Webley round nose travelling 600 fps should be as effective a fight-stopper as a .223 carbine. Entirely pointless trying to reduce so many factors to one number...

 

Please pass the cookies..thank you..

 

You said .30 cal not .22 rifle.

Apples and oranges. I will stand by my thoughts where there is not one single 30 cal rifle that " I'd much rather have a properly loaded .44 than any .30cal rifle."

That may be, as that is your personal preference. But to your general statement on bone, I have taken hogs that have had slugs still stuck in bone. One of my uncles most told stories is bouncing a 44 off the skull of a hog, then the hog treeing him and finishing him off with a 45 from above.

Your statement (to me) implies that FPE hitting the target means nothing, and that is just not accurate. It does mean something, I will go out on a limb and say everything, and you know it with your "properly loaded" comment. Now if you want to argue the amount of energy on target is excessive for the job needed, ok I will buy that argument, I don't agree...to a point, too much energy on target will turn the target into dust with it still but it is an argument that will stand on its own two feet. And you agree that rifles to hit with more energy.

You give it away with the term "properly loaded" I could hit that same animal in your photo with an "improperly loaded" (whatever that is) rifle cartridge and still get the same result.....(and now for the real point)....depending on where I hit it. That is the key, shot placement. We have all read the stories of people killing a bear with a 22 rimfire, your photo means, in your words a hill of beans. You can kill anything with anything. I had been doing a deep dive on the american indian, and in one tribe a right of passage was the killing of a buffalo by yourself, with a bow, a bow made with 300 year old tech....the american indian before the whites came are a stone age people, and still they killed animals that size. So in a way that goes along with your FPE means nothing (not really but I will get to that) as they could take it with a stone age bow......if the shot was in the right place.

What that extra energy does for you is widen your margin for error, and with the slightest error gives you a greater chance to take the animal in an ethical manner. Again to the stories, we all have them about someone (never us) tracking a blood trail for miles trying to find that deer. And I think we can all agree that in cases like that, that was a bad shot. Modern rifles, and even "primitive" rifles (What MO calls it) hit with a ton of force, it is the energy impacted on target that does the deed, if not why did all those hunters in history going after big game that wanted it dead right then and there, think wide destruction of bison in the us. They shot those huge rifles with those huge bullets because it felt manly? Nope, They needed the range, nope, bison are really really stupid, they just stand there not knowing why George over there fell down dead. You just line up on another and bang away, rifle get too hot, pour water on it and keep going. They wanted that energy to drop the animal and not chase it, more easy for the crews skinning them. (on a side note hard to imagine our .gov promoted the destruction of an entire species to "tame" the indian)

Energy is what matters, will agree that the energy in a hand gun is "enough" provided the shot is right. That extra energy is needed for a margin of error.

And I have little doubt the animal in your photo DRT.

Sorry but FPE on target is the thing doing the job. Man I could babble on with examples but this is already too long.

 

I'll point out that in your first example you roughly doubled the momentum and in the second you went roughly ~6X the energy.
In this discussion the 20-25% energy advantage the 30/30 has on the 357 is far less than the 20-25% momentum advantage that the 44 has over the 30/30 with regard to terminal performance.

 

Hmmm.... pepparkaka, my favorite.

Rifle is nice, too.

 

Thanks for posting my buddy the "fudd" is currently having a meltdown over the tactical sling in the saddle ring lol.

 

Do all these hunters evaluate all this "data" before they reach for their favorite lever rifle to go hunting? Seriously doubt it. Think they have a pretty good idea how that rifle shoots.

 

That was just a lark.
That single point sling belongs on my AR pistol....but it worked perfectly on the saddle ring. FYI

 

This is America, so it IS your right to be wrong.

But you’re wrong.

Your Uncle’s fish stories don’t refute facts.

 

I think you really have to define what result you desire to affect when you talk about killing power. We all know that a 22lr can and will and has killed deer sized game. So if a 45/70 and a 22lr both make the critter dead, then I guess you could say they have equal killing power. Of course we know that's not quite the whole story. Even if you take the same chambering with the same weight bullet at the same velocity, there are differences in affect from one bullet to another. In my experience flat nose and round nose bullets wound better than spitzer bullets because they are basically hitting already partially expanded so they tend to make larger entrance wounds with which blood can escape and give us a blood trail rather than making pencil size entrance wounds like a spitzer bullet usually does. I don't really care about energy figures because it doesn't speak to anything about what a bullet will do when it enters tissue. I think you could make an argument that big bores with non expanding bullets don't put that much energy into an animal because a 500 grain 458 win mag bullet will penetrate many feet of tissue so they waste much of their energy into the dirt behind an 16" thick deer. On the other hand something like a 7mm mag loaded with a light and soft bullet can dump an incredible amount of energy in a short distance through expansion and fragmentation. Does that mean a 7mm magnum has more killing power than a 458 win mag? On a 150 deer that is probably technically true, but not on a cape buffalo.

Personally I've seen so many heart and lung shot deer run off 150 yards that I've personally come to the conclusion that dumping energy into an animal is not the result that I want to affect. Pretty much any centerfire cartridge is well capable of killing the deer, so if that was my only goal, then I would just use a 223 AR15. My real goal is to kill the deer and retrieve it without having to walk around in the slough for 3 hours searching under red willows, and not turn the insides of it into a liquid. A deer has like 30 seconds of oxygen in their brain even after you destroy their heart and lungs so in my experience doing massive internal damage doesn't always make the deer pass out any faster. It is however very destructive when you have to shoot through parts you intend to eat to get to vital organs. To make it easier to find the deer, I need to let the blood out, which means big hole in, and big hole out.

Tracking is easy when you use a 444 marlin!

 

Tell me you really don't understand the law of conservation of energy in physics, without saying you don't understand the law of conservation in physics.

 

tell me what the difference is between to bullets that are exactly the same traveling at two different speeds....and what happens to the target.

 

And if you had a tool on it that would increase the range where you would be comfortable.....say an optic of some kind? What one would you trust out to a farther distance.

 

What happens?

Momentum is conserved.

Kinetic Energy is not.

 

So you are saying if you want to save the meat there is a difference in shooting a squirrel with a 22 rim fire, vs a 223? I have seen talk of a 45 grain 223 bullet, I have seen 40 grain LR bullets.....you mean to tell me that the energy of one is more then the other?

I don't think one person sees where I am trying to go here, hopefully this will help.