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Somebody convince me to like black rifles

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by subdude, Feb 7, 2012.

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  1. subdude

    subdude Member

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    Here's the deal. My son is infatuated with black rifles. (he's 26) I don't get it. My safe is stocked with Garands, M1 Carbines, Mini 14s, Mosin Nagants, Ruger 77s and the like. Black plastic rifles just don't look like proper firearms to me.

    Please understand, I'm not trying to bash anything here, I honestly want to learn about why the AR platform is so popular. Do they perform any better than a "traditional" rifle? They certainly don't seem to be any cheaper.

    If it's the "commando, warrior, bad guy, mall ninja" (jk) image, okay, I can understand that I guess. As I don't perceive myself to be any sort of invading force, army ranger, etc, what does the AR really offer? I don't need flashlights, lasers, etc mounted on my rifle. I just shoot paper, and occasionally a soda can.

    Again, I'm not bashing, and hope that someone will be able to explain, give me a different perspective, or even point me to somewhere I can learn.

    Be gentle..... ;)
     
  2. GI_Jared

    GI_Jared Member

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    What the AR offers is customization, more so than almost any other firearm on the planet. It allows you to make a gun for a specific purpose or multiple purposes by just switching uppers.
     
  3. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    I don't think there would be any convincing you.

    Your boy probably likes the commando/warrior/GI Joe imagery, so just accept it for that. After all, look at the movies that have been targeted to his age group during the past decade or more.

    Then again, he might just be very knowledgeable and refined in his tastes. :evil: Sorry, I couldn't help.
     
  4. FWest

    FWest Member

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    Best thing I can say is go shoot one and see. Very little recoil, very accurate. Ammo is not bad priced. Can change uppers to change calibers. Fun range gun.
     
  5. mberoose

    mberoose Member

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    Tacticancer can be treated with time, don't worry.
     
  6. snakeman

    snakeman Member

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    Can't convince you to like them. Seems like you don't need to you already have better guns anyway. Personally I like the feel of a good bolt or lever action a lot better than that of an ar. I have an ar with two uppers and I really like the gun, but if it came down to it my savage 99 or my howa 22-250 would stay while the ar was sold. It's simply a matter of taste.
     
  7. valnar

    valnar Member

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    Many people like "black" rifles for the same reason people like traditional rifles. It could have nothing to do with the capability, but the aesthetics. If you happen to think black rifles are ugly like a bulldog, one could always point out people who like bulldogs.

    This same question comes up with revolvers. To someone who likes the sexy, traditional lines of a Colt SAA will like it for those reasons. To somebody who sees it as an outdated piece of equipment where a Glock can hold 3x the amount of rounds is not entirely wrong, he simply likes (or dislikes) it for a different reason entirely.
     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    We can't say for sure why your son prefers AR-15 over more "traditional" firearms.

    It could be as simple as the commando/warrior looks, as you perceive them to be.

    Or it could be because the design is very, very accurate -- and more easily can be made more accurate than most other firearms.

    Or maybe it is because it is more ergonomic, and easy for most shooters to learn to shoot well.

    Or maybe because it is very flexible and offers myriad possibilities in use, caliber, power, and performance.

    Or maybe because it is the service rifle of the current age.

    Or maybe because it tends to dominate most types of rifle competition.

    Or maybe because of (in some configurations) light weight and compact size.

    Or relative inexpensive ammo.

    Lots of reasons. No idea which of them make the AR "trip his trigger" so to speak.
     
  9. subdude

    subdude Member

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    Taste I can certainly understand. No problem there. I do indeed have accurate guns, that perform far better than I can. Is the AR really that accurate?
     
  10. kfgk14

    kfgk14 Member

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    Well, if you don't need the modularity, cheap ammo, light weight, diverse caliber options, incredible mechanical accuracy potential, large ammunition capacity, and relentless reliability of a mil-spec AR-pattern rifle, don't buy one.

    Their light recoil impulse makes them controllable in rapid fire. This is due to the inline buffer and recoil impulse. The felt recoil (all subjective IMHO) of an AR is, to me, less than a Mini 14 of equivalent weight.

    It is the most popular rifle in action sports because it is very easy and affordable to build an AR-15 that will shoot 1-1.5 MOA and is light enough to run around a three-gun field with for hours.

    The AR-15 is no a ubiquitous platform in not only America, but around the world. Go to Wikipedia and look at the list of nations which issue M16's to their forces. It's impressive.

    It's ergonomic. It's comfortable, the stock is often adjustable in length, and few people are to tall or short for an A1 or A2 length fixed stock. The sights are precise. The mounting of optics is easy.
    It is the easiest rifle to mount accessories to. It is far easier to free float and accurize than say, the M1 Garand or M1A.

    Say what you please about the 5.56 cartridge, but it has put very many people in the ground, and will keep doing so for a long, long time. Say what you please about the AR defecating where it's masticating, but the facts show a properly assembled and lubricated AR-15 will remove the carbon from the operating surfaces of the weapon on its own.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  11. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Yes. As a general matter, the AR is "that" accurate, and anyone with the skill to detail strip a 1911 possesses the skill to assemble an AR from off-the-shelf parts that has the capacity (if the shooter and ammo are up to it) to shoot well under 1" at 100 yds -- and most likely nearly half that.

    It is a very inherently accurate design.

    That's one of the reasons they've become so popular as varmint and preditor rifles and get use as long-range "practical" rifles as well.
     
  12. snakeman

    snakeman Member

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    Ar's are a great way to build on your accuracy. That said so is a well made bolt gun. It's just get what ya like and if you are asking us to convince you to like them then you already like them on some level. Go shoot with your son and if your interest is amplified then get one and if not, buy a bunch of ammo for your other guns and have blast.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  13. subdude

    subdude Member

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    Sam,

    Thanks for the thoughtful answers without attitude.
     
  14. mberoose

    mberoose Member

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    ARs are serious business.
     
  15. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    In terms of a target rifle, the AR15 platform, be it a NM service rifle, or a match rifle, is exceptionally accurate. In NM form, I believe it is the most accurate service rifle in the world.

    Unfortunately my NM AR15 weighs 17 pounds because I need that weight to keep the thing steady when I shoot offhand.

    As a target rifle, once set up, you don't need the thing rebedded and tweaked as you do bolt rifles and M1a’s and Garands. Both M1a’s and Garands will pound themselves loose: loose does not matter for AR15's, ones that rattle seem to shoot better than the tighter ones.

    The more you can avoid gunsmiths the better. Once the buggers get to recognize you, it takes forever for them to get around in assembling or refurbishing the target rifle you sent them.

    You can get National Match winning rifles direct from Rock River, Armalite, Bushmaster, and I have met the shooters who have won events or the whole enchilada at Camp Perry with stock box AR’s.
     
  16. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    I originally bought mine as a varmint gun to shoot prairie dogs in MT. Cheap ammo with a ghillie suit and a bipod. Squeeze, wait, squeeze, find another target, etc. At 250 yards those dogs didn't know what was going on when I missed them, which happened about 95% of the time. I love a bolt action for most hunting but the AR really fit the bill for this type of situation. Unfortunately, for me anyway, a plague wiped out most of the dogs on this particular ranch
     
  17. SharkHat

    SharkHat Member

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    I'd recommend shooting one so that you can find out for yourself why they have gained so much popularity.

    Don't let us convince you, let the rifle do it.

    If you give it a try and it doesn't win you over, well at least you got to spend some time shooting one (maybe even with your son). Your opinion either way will be based on your own experience.
     
  18. minutemen1776

    minutemen1776 Member

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    Put aside your traditionalist bias (that's really what this is, isn't it?) and go shoot a good AR15. Then you'll likely see what the attraction is. Like you, I also own and enjoy M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, and Mosin-Nagant rifles, among other older tried-and-true designs. Even still, I loved the AR platform from the first time I was introduced. I still have a variety of things in the safe, but the AR15 is definitely a favorite.
     
  19. subdude

    subdude Member

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    Yeah, I guess so. Guilty as charged. However, I am most certainly willing to listen and learn.

    So, what makes for a "good" AR? I don't expect a laundry list of parts that I have no idea what they are, just a basic starting point, and a direction to learn more.
     
  20. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    They can be easier to customize and make it exactly the configuration you want. They are accurate (if you buy the right bits), and they can even be relatively light weight (if you don't load them up with doodads). I have multiple lowers with multiple uppers so I can configure one for just paper puching, one for hunting, and one for shooting 3 gun games, it's convenient for me.

    But for many poeple it's probably just a mall ninja thing.
     
  21. Sheepdog1968

    Sheepdog1968 Member

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    Personally I like your stuff better as well. I think a big part of the reason is that this is what our soliders are currently using. Who doesn't want to own what our soliders are using? If you think about it, in generations past it was the kinds of weapons you own (not all of them but you get the idea). In fact in the early 90s (in my early 20s) ARs were very popular as well (probably for the same reasons).
     
  22. HoosierQ

    HoosierQ Member

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    For me, tradition vs modernity is (currently) a question of a 20" barrel and a fixed stock with a carry handle and A2 sight vs the "m4gery".

    Being old school ;) I shoot a Stag Model 4 which is a full-sized 20" rifle with a fixed stock etc. If I wanted a carbine, I think I'd prefer an M1 Carbine rather than an m4 style AR-15.

    So I too wrestled with the tradition question and got an A2 style AR-15. Way too easy to shoot, clean, reload, and feed.
     
  23. Gordon_Freeman

    Gordon_Freeman Member

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    I started out like your son. I didn't understand the attraction of the old rifles with wood stocks. A few years later and now the M1 Garand is my favorite rifle. I also like other old battle rifles. I still like the ARs and AKs though. Maybe your son will go through the same progression as he gets a little older.
     
  24. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    Mostly what other people have said. The thing others haven't really emphasized is the ergonomics of the rifle though. Not "that feels good," but more of the fact that the controls are placed really well (with the possible exception of the charging handle, but at least it's ambidexterous. ;) )

    Reach your trigger finger slightly forward to release the magazine and it drops free -- quite a bit easier and faster than an M1A. The safety selector is within reach of your thumb - no reason to stick your finger in the trigger guard to disable the safety. The bolt release it easy to hit without any attention to detail. Recoil with most is nonexistent (not talking about the original Carbon 15's - I didn't like shooting mine at all). If you want to shoot .458 SOCOM for giggles you can mount a new upper and turn your 30 round magazines into 10 round magazines.

    The stock triggers tend to be, ummm, a bit rough. Aftermarket triggers by Timney or Geissele are surprisingly good.

    Plus, they're more customizable than 1911's, which is really saying something.

    You do need to keep them clean compared to some other designs though, and crappy magazines will cause reliability issues. (When I was in the service I stole magazines I knew would feed well, then only used them for qualifications. There are better magazine designs out there now though, like the Magpuls.)

    At SHOT this year the publications they were passing out kept referring to MSR rifles. Turns out that stands for Modern Sporting Rifle, which you might guess is an AR platform, but in camo.

    You'll be seeing them for a while.
     
  25. Adam123

    Adam123 Member

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    There are hundreds of threads just on this forum that answer the OP.
     
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