To me, dressing up a black rifle is like putting lipstick on a pig. Lots of people have them and enjoy them...even nephews in my family, but I doubt I'll ever own one. But, I said that about laminate stocks and composite stocks. Now I have 3 of them. Go figure. Never say never. The only bad gun is the one that sits in the corner ignored.
Somebody convince me to like black rifles
- Thread starter subdude
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AMEN Brudda!!!Here's the deal. My son is infatuated with black rifles. (he's 26) I don't get it. My safe is stocked with Garands, M1 Carbines, Mini 14s, Mosin Nagants, Ruger 77s and the like. Black plastic rifles just don't look like proper firearms to me.
Please understand, I'm not trying to bash anything here, I honestly want to learn about why the AR platform is so popular. Do they perform any better than a "traditional" rifle? They certainly don't seem to be any cheaper.
If it's the "commando, warrior, bad guy, mall ninja" (jk) image, okay, I can understand that I guess. As I don't perceive myself to be any sort of invading force, army ranger, etc, what does the AR really offer? I don't need flashlights, lasers, etc mounted on my rifle. I just shoot paper, and occasionally a soda can.
Again, I'm not bashing, and hope that someone will be able to explain, give me a different perspective, or even point me to somewhere I can learn.
Be gentle.....
I agree with you! I have 1 token black gun. I shoot it sparingly. That's all I need! I appreciate the beautiful wood and special grains that seem to make a rifle a family heirloom.
JustinJ
Member
How woudl you respond if i said "convince me to like Garands"?
Ashcons
Member
Got a friend with one you can go give a try? You'll either like it or you won't after the experience of shooting it. You're the only one missing out on anything if you decide you don't like EBRs without giving them a shot (zing).
Go read Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs & Ham
Go read Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs & Ham
C-grunt
Member
Here is a video I found with a quick search on Youtube. Not the best video but shows that ARs can be very accurate when set up properly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJWLP81qCAE
CoRoMo
Member
I have a chart around here somewhere that I'd like you to take a look at.
Most ar companies are pretty good. I would look into dpms, stag, del-ton, palmetto state armory, and smith and wesson. Also, look at ar15.com for some genuine insight and let yourself take in the bountiful wisdom and shut out the blatant ignorance you will get from trying to be convinced. I have a love/hate relationship with ar's. Emphasis on the love part. Granted there are things they fall short at and things they excell at. If you have the extra funds what's it gonna hurt?
ugaarguy
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Others have already mentioned the modularity. To answer that, I have to ask another question. What do you want the AR to do? The main categories I can think of are:
- Range toy / plinker
- Hard Use / Duty Weapon / Personal & Home Defense / High round count training courses
- 3 gun & similar shoot & move type competition
- DCM & similar service rifle competition
- Long range varminter or long range bench rest gun
- Lightweight hunting carbine
- Retro Style collector builds
Let us know what you want it to do, and we can give more informed responses.
mortablunt
Member
The AR can be endlessly customized. If you are willing to put up with the platform, then you can use different upper receivers for almost any task. AR's also look cool, so +1 simply for looking nice. It's hard to believe that the gun predates Doctor Who.
I have a lot of the OP rifle selection except the Mosins. The safe is full of good bolt guns, M1 Carbines, M1A's and Garands. It also has almost a dozen, i haven't counted late;y, AR's from mild to wild. 22 RF up to 25 WSSM. The modularity is unreal and the choices for quality parts is endless. I shot a lot of 3 Gun matches and prairie dogs. I tend toward the varmint hunting box more than anything but got the 25 WSSM to use as a light elk rifle if the wife wanted to go.
The ability to swap top ends and go after anything in North America with little effort is a very nice feature. Once you get one with a good trigger and optics that balances well it is hard to argue against them unless the need for real wood furniture is a huge issue that is!!
Greg
The ability to swap top ends and go after anything in North America with little effort is a very nice feature. Once you get one with a good trigger and optics that balances well it is hard to argue against them unless the need for real wood furniture is a huge issue that is!!
Greg
BrocLuno
Member
Now, IF I could come up with a nice matte dark silver/gray finish and some Kalif manzanita wood furniture for an AR, I might be looking? Since I toted a Mattel rifle when I was in, it's not my favorite color combo. I'm not against black, but plastic and aluminum are not my version of "pretty" and most of my rifles have to look good in the end. I understand and appreciate the need for the look when on actual patrol, whatever. I am not trying to be Army gain - been there, done that.
Even my M1 Garands do not look like they just came off the battle field. I like a little parade dress. I watch the British soldiers doing a "change of the guards" with their red and black uniforms and modern weapons and they look out of place (to me). I'd rather see them with Enfields polished and shiny standing in front of the castle. The guys on the roof, on the other hand, maybe better have AR's?
Even my M1 Garands do not look like they just came off the battle field. I like a little parade dress. I watch the British soldiers doing a "change of the guards" with their red and black uniforms and modern weapons and they look out of place (to me). I'd rather see them with Enfields polished and shiny standing in front of the castle. The guys on the roof, on the other hand, maybe better have AR's?
Sheepdog1968
Member
I ended up taking it one step further. Now my favorite rifle (by a long shot) is my lever action 30-30. I didn't expect that to happen. In fact, I bought the lever action just to have one. Who knew it would end up being what I take out to shoot more than anything else.
sirgilligan
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- 895
I have a "black" rifle that is not an AR-15. It has lots of plastic on it.
It takes the STANAG/NATO magazine. That is one reason I like it.
It shoots 5.56x45mm ammunition. That is the second reason I like it.
It is semi-auto. That is the third reason I like it.
I find those three things to be useful.
My Dad's M1 Carbine is prettier to me.
I think a Ruger Mini-30 with a wood stock would be a rifle that looks like a rifle.
The M1 Carbine, the Ruger Mini, and my "black" rifle are all good rifles.
The older style rifles with wood stocks are more visually appealing to me.
Just like with my pistols. My Browning Hi-Powers with wood stocks are the ones I think are the prettiest. And in this case, pretty is deadly accurate too!
With the same theme of the OP, I have never warmed up to the polymer pistols. But, I made the leap to the "black" rifle and I am happy. I bet if I ever get a quality polymer pistol I will like it too.
It takes the STANAG/NATO magazine. That is one reason I like it.
It shoots 5.56x45mm ammunition. That is the second reason I like it.
It is semi-auto. That is the third reason I like it.
I find those three things to be useful.
My Dad's M1 Carbine is prettier to me.
I think a Ruger Mini-30 with a wood stock would be a rifle that looks like a rifle.
The M1 Carbine, the Ruger Mini, and my "black" rifle are all good rifles.
The older style rifles with wood stocks are more visually appealing to me.
Just like with my pistols. My Browning Hi-Powers with wood stocks are the ones I think are the prettiest. And in this case, pretty is deadly accurate too!
With the same theme of the OP, I have never warmed up to the polymer pistols. But, I made the leap to the "black" rifle and I am happy. I bet if I ever get a quality polymer pistol I will like it too.
JFrame
Member
This thread speaks to me.
Like the OP, I have never been able to acquire an interest in the AR. This is not to denigrate the system or manufacturers by any means -- I fully acknowledge their value and capabilities. There's just something about them that doesn't "sing" to me. Maybe it's the sheer ubiquitousness of them that keeps them from being interesting for me.
As a few others have said, I would prefer what's already in the OP's safe. Heck -- you can stop at the Garands and M-1 carbines, and I'd be satisfied...
Given the sheer volume of AR choices and accessories out there, I am actually hoping that, someday, a switch will go on inside me to desire one.
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Like the OP, I have never been able to acquire an interest in the AR. This is not to denigrate the system or manufacturers by any means -- I fully acknowledge their value and capabilities. There's just something about them that doesn't "sing" to me. Maybe it's the sheer ubiquitousness of them that keeps them from being interesting for me.
As a few others have said, I would prefer what's already in the OP's safe. Heck -- you can stop at the Garands and M-1 carbines, and I'd be satisfied...
Given the sheer volume of AR choices and accessories out there, I am actually hoping that, someday, a switch will go on inside me to desire one.
.
jpwilly
Member
Why?
I have much of what you have in my safe also but along with a couple AR-15's. I like them but you don't have to.
Hunterdad
Member
I love metal guns with nice wood. I have some beautiful shotguns and rifles that have some amazing wood. With that said, I also love my AR. I just cant miss with it and it is so versatile. An AR has a place in everyones collection in my opinion whether it be plinking or long range predator hunting.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I can relate. I don't own one myself. But shooting a fair bit of competition and training type exercises has found me frequently facing the "but the dang thing just WORKS better" facts from time to time. I know I can work really, really, really hard and someday I'll be at the top of my game shooting some rifle or pistol that I really like. Or...though I may want to jump up and kick my own butt for saying it ... I could switch to the "Fan Club's Favorite" rifle or pistol and get to the same level of proficiency in 1/2 the time.
And that helps explain the immense popularity of certain guns like ARs and Glocks (and maybe 1911s too, for us traditionalists). Large numbers of folks have tried a hundred different rifles or pistols, but are simply able to do better, faster, and more easily -- as a measurable trend -- with certain guns that happen to have found the sweet spot of shootability, accuracy, and all the little factors that help folks put bullets where they want.
And, in the end it is all about putting a bullet in the exact spot you want in a timely fashion. You may say, well, I just like working the action of this Mauser, or listening to the "Ping" of my Garand, or whatever, but if you're cutting right to the soul of the exercise (because you want to win at competition or stay alive as long as possible in a war or self-defense encounter) none of that really matters.
The AR-15 probably ISN'T the very most perfect balance of features for the most people that ever could be developed, and gun technology probably hasn't stopped evolving. But it is getting darned close -- so close that when the best most cutting-edge gun companies try to develop something better they can't make a big enough step forward for anyone to exactly fall in love with (or even agree upon the value of) their improvements.
JFrame
Member
Well, Sam -- that is about the most persuasive sequence of words I've heard yet on behalf of the AR.
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, crud. Guess I gotta go buy one!
Gtimothy
Member
If a dirty bolt group turns you against the AR, the new gas piston uppers are the way to go. I have an Adams Arms upper on mine and even after a couple hundred rounds, the handguard wasn't too hot and the bolt/carrier assembly was still clean. A far cry from my first AR with direct impingement system....That gun would get SERIOUSLY hot at the hand guard and the cleanup after the shoot....well you know!
JFrame
Member
Well, crud. Guess I gotta go buy one!
Ha -- you certainly can't be immune to your own eloquence!
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MachIVshooter
Member
Lots of good answers here. I'll just add this:
No one but you can convince you to like them, but.............I'd bet money that once you try one, you will like it.
I'm with you on aesthetics. I love a beautiful walnut stock on a shiny blue rifle. The AR isn't a pretty gun. The AR's attractiveness is a functional beauty, much like the Glock. Mine don't get put behind the etched glass in my show cabinet; They live in the corner of the room. But should the need for firepower arise, I'll not be going after the ones in the cabinet. I'll be reaching in the corner.
Mostly a fun gun, I also use mine for close-in varminting (it's a 16" mid length A2). On a really active praire rat town, it's hard to beat. I only switch to my .220 Swift heavy varmint rifle after we've either killed or scared into their holes all the nearby critters.
My advice is to not overthink the AR until you've had a little trigger time with one. If you don't like the way they look, you'll have to like the way they shoot. If you don't like the way they shoot either, then the AR is not for you.
No one but you can convince you to like them, but.............I'd bet money that once you try one, you will like it.
I'm with you on aesthetics. I love a beautiful walnut stock on a shiny blue rifle. The AR isn't a pretty gun. The AR's attractiveness is a functional beauty, much like the Glock. Mine don't get put behind the etched glass in my show cabinet; They live in the corner of the room. But should the need for firepower arise, I'll not be going after the ones in the cabinet. I'll be reaching in the corner.
Mostly a fun gun, I also use mine for close-in varminting (it's a 16" mid length A2). On a really active praire rat town, it's hard to beat. I only switch to my .220 Swift heavy varmint rifle after we've either killed or scared into their holes all the nearby critters.
My advice is to not overthink the AR until you've had a little trigger time with one. If you don't like the way they look, you'll have to like the way they shoot. If you don't like the way they shoot either, then the AR is not for you.
Red October
Member
I'm going to try a different tactic here.
OP, I notice that you have a Garand, a Carbine, and a Mosin. I'm going to assume (risky, I know) that you have collected these at least partly due to their history.
Like many on this site, I collect firearms, mostly military. They range from my oldest (1884 "Trapdoor" Springfield) to the more modern AR/M4 type plaforms. For many of us, the historic combat weapons that we grew up reading about were traditional wood-stocked rifles such as the Garand, the 1903, the Mosin, etc. "Black rifles" are the modern generation's historic combat weapons (the M-16 is almost fifty years old). Other "black rifles", such as the G-3/HK91 and FN-FAL have also been around a while.
As Sam pointed out, as technology improves and rifle designs get combat tested, things get better. Improved ergonomics is one of the results that we have seen.
I like them simply for being the next step in the evolution of combat rifles.
OP, I notice that you have a Garand, a Carbine, and a Mosin. I'm going to assume (risky, I know) that you have collected these at least partly due to their history.
Like many on this site, I collect firearms, mostly military. They range from my oldest (1884 "Trapdoor" Springfield) to the more modern AR/M4 type plaforms. For many of us, the historic combat weapons that we grew up reading about were traditional wood-stocked rifles such as the Garand, the 1903, the Mosin, etc. "Black rifles" are the modern generation's historic combat weapons (the M-16 is almost fifty years old). Other "black rifles", such as the G-3/HK91 and FN-FAL have also been around a while.
As Sam pointed out, as technology improves and rifle designs get combat tested, things get better. Improved ergonomics is one of the results that we have seen.
I like them simply for being the next step in the evolution of combat rifles.
subdude,
I'm trying to figure out if you don't like the mechanics and architecture of the AR15, or the material composition. I noticed you had a Mini-14. That's a semi-auto as well, but like the Garand, I assume yours is wood + blued steel?
What would you think of an AR15 with wood furniture? Better? Or is it just the newness of the design? All sterile and functional.
(Not disagreeing with you BTW. I love classic rifles better too)
What if it did look like a rifle? Take a nice, brand new Sako 85 bolt-action with synthetic stock and stainless barrel. Nobody would argue that it's not a fantastic rifle as well as weather resistant. It's silhouette looks just like a classic rifle to me. Does that still offend you?
I'm trying to figure out if you don't like the mechanics and architecture of the AR15, or the material composition. I noticed you had a Mini-14. That's a semi-auto as well, but like the Garand, I assume yours is wood + blued steel?
What would you think of an AR15 with wood furniture? Better? Or is it just the newness of the design? All sterile and functional.
(Not disagreeing with you BTW. I love classic rifles better too)
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