Something's Gotta Give

[D.B. Cooper]

I'm right back it again, guys, and I'm already frustrated to the n-th degree.

Most of you will remember the many discussions I've started about erratic and unreliable reloading equipment preventing me from having any resemblance of confidence in what I'm doing. And every time it happens, I come here, and we have a lengthy discussion about what could be wrong.

Well it's happening again, and I'm at the point not so much of asking what is wrong, but what equipment to throw out first.

I'm in the process of converting my Lee Auto Drum back to 44 special (so the low capacity drum) from 243 Winchester (so the high capacity drum). I never touched the drum volume adjustment so, in theory at least, I should have been able to just reinstall it and go...or at least be close.

No such luck. I'm ALL OVER THE BOARD with this thing. It is throwing plus or minus 4-5 tenths either side of zero on every single charge. I can't make it throw right.

ORRRR. My Redding No. 2 scale is erratic and it's giving me crazy numbers everywhere.

This has been going on for a YEAR now in some fashion or another.

I have tried everything. Electronic scales. Beam scales. Electronic powder measures. I have abandoned everything electronic and am down to nothing more than a beam scale and the Lee Auto-Drum. This is supposed to be simple. You just turn the dial on the drum to increase or decrease the capacity of the drum until you get the powder charge you want. I can't think of anything else I can do to get this right. I just can't stand it anymore.

What do I have to do to be a successful reloader? What do I have to buy? How much do I have to spend? What is the answer to this problem?

In the mean time, I've got enough revolver ammo for about two more matches and then I'm out. I could just throw whatever unknown or unreliably known amount of powder just to make up some ammo to keep going, but to be honest, my scores have been plummeting like the Titanic and, while it probably isn't the ammo, I can't help but think that it is. (Because it's easier to blame the ammo than my lack of skill.)

 

[WrongHanded]

Well, I have noticed that the auto-drum (being mounted to the press), is more susceptible to inconsistent charge weights based on how much shaking it gets from the previous steps on the press.

So for some loads which don't run very smoothly through the dies, I get big differences in charges. So for those loads, I use a separately mounted RCBS Uniflow powder measure. It is still mounted to the same table, but not on the press directly so it doesn't get shaken about. Other loads run great with the auto-drum.

 

[George P]

Might be the Lee; might be the powder you're using, might be the way you are doing it. I use a RCBS powder measure and I get great results by bring consistent in how I operate it. If I am not consistent, I will get variations.

 

[bersaguy]

I get erratic powder throws with the lee auto drum when the hopper gets less than 1/3 full, but usually not as big of a swing as you're getting...maybe 2/10ths either way. That's with Titegroup. Also I have to drop about 5-10 throws when I start to get it settled in. Seems to help giving the hopper a tap or two before dropping. I'm considering purchasing a small, ahem..., battery operated marital aid, to tape to the hopper to provide some settling action...not sure if that's a good idea though

 

[kcofohio]

Don't you have air movement in the reloading area? Fan, heater, heavy breathing? Those can also cause erratic readings on a quite sensitive scale.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Drop a charge and read it multiple times.
Drop the next charge and do the same thing.
This will tell you if it's consistent.
I wasn't impressed by the auto drum. I now use a Hornady volumetric. It is accurate with ball powder. Stick and flake are plus or minus enough that I weigh them.

 

[FROGO207]

I have several powder measures and I throw all my charges off the press. First off you need to settle the propellant into the hopper some before you start to measure your throw weight. Throw 10-20 or more charges before you even start to weigh them. Just throw the powder back into the hopper. With the tall measures a baffle helps a lot. Keep the hopper at least half full at all times. When dropping charges do it the exact same way every time tapping the hopper at the top and bottom of each stroke this also helps with consistency. Some find getting an aquarium air pump and taping it to the measure helps with consistent throws as well. Also after you find a good load make a custom scoop that throws that amount and practice scooping until you get the knack of doing it well. The scoop will never go out of weight and I find it as easy as running the measure when off the press. Finally running your press with a slow and steady motion rather than jerking the handle will help keep things consistent. Now as to the amount of consistency you need in the first place +- .1 grain is good for most handgun ammo. The bigger the volume in the case the larger the error can be without affecting the results IMO. At this point I would not be getting rid of anything just yet. And this is not a competition at speed so slow down and conquer one problem at a time. Yes I agree this can be frustrating but loading even some ammo with just OK drops might be just as accurate as measuring to .1 grain. just sayin.

 

[Reloadron]

I have tried everything. Electronic scales. Beam scales. Electronic powder measures. I have abandoned everything electronic and am down to nothing more than a beam scale and the Lee Auto-Drum. This is supposed to be simple. You just turn the dial on the drum to increase or decrease the capacity of the drum until you get the powder charge you want. I can't think of anything else I can do to get this right. I just can't stand it anymore.

What do I have to do to be a successful reloader? What do I have to buy? How much do I have to spend? What is the answer to this problem?

You really do not need to buy very much. Reloading is pretty basic and while an array of expensive tools exist from assorted gauges to $600 powder scales they are all, for the most part, nice to have tools and not necessary. The Lee Auto Drum and a dozen similar to it all work the same way. The cylinder has a volume, you fill the volume with powder and dispense the powder. The actual weight of the powder for a given volume will be a function of the density of the powder. The Volume Measured Density (VMD) of a powder is the volume in cc's (cubic centimeter) that one grain of powder occupies.When using a powder dispenser that "throws"powder based on a VMD some powders will obviously repeat better than others. You will hear a comment like "this powder meters well" usually with ball or spherical powders or "this powder is difficult to meter" such as with stick type powders. The idea is to get consistent and repeatable powder throws and maintaining +/- 0.1 grain is not at all unusual.

A simple Google of "lee auto drum powder measure problems" will bring up a few dozen hits of problems people have but you could likely remove Lee and insert any manufacturer and get the same results. Knowing how the powder measure works goes a long way in solving problems and making it work correctly. Start by making sure the hopper is clean and the powder has an unobstructed path down into the drum. The powder throw needs to operate the same throw to throw meaning the same force applied, if you want consistent throws then everything must be consistent, no bench shake! Stick powders will often give what reloaders call a "crunchy" feeling as the sticks are cut. With things correctly setup you should be able to hold +/- 0.1 grain.

That also assumes your scale is correctly leveled and setup. Using a beam scale make sure the knife edges are clean as well as the agate retainers the knife edges ride on. Place the same weight on the scale several times and make sure the scale repeats each time. You need to start by making sure your scale is good and repeatable before using it to weigh charges.

Ron

 

[Dibbs]

Lee fan boys will probably go nutz, but I had to change most of my Lee gear to
Dillon Precision or Hornady. The lee handloader is sort of nice, for decapping while
watching TV. But that's about it, for me.

 

[drband]

@D.B. Cooper you truly have a dilemma. Either your AutoDrum is not working properly because it is assembled improperly, or it may just plain be defective. I have 4 AutoDrum units and they all consistently throw within + or - .1gr accuracy. I have read of a few people getting a bad AutoDrum and getting an exchange from Lee. It might be time to contact LeePrecision.com and talk to their CS to see if they will send you a new one.

They will probably want to talk you through assembly and adjustment before sending a replacement, and it would be worth the exercise to see if it clears up your inconsistent drops. There are some quirks that could affect the AD performance... (how far it's screwed into the powder drop riser or die, powder drop die adjustment, drum tension knob tightness, o-ring on the tension knob, clean seating of the drum, hopper cut-off opening too loose, and probably some others I failed to remember). There are LOTS of moving parts to this problem, but when you get it right either by set-up, adjustment, or getting a new unit, it all works nicely.

If your beam scale repeats it's measurement time after time when you remove and replace the same weight, it should be just fine.

Again, the AutoDrum can be a fine piece of equipment... mine measures Unique, Red Dot, Accurate #2, Bullseye, W296, W231, and stays within .1gr + or - consistently (usually dead-on)-- even with Unique. I really hope you find the cause of your issue. Reloading is useful AND fun if your system works. I'm sorry yours is broken right now.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've loaded with an old Pacific "C" press and with an old Lyman 310 tong tool. I've used the ancient Pacific scale where you put the weights in the pan and adjusted a weight on a threaded rod. Then Redding came out with the magnetic damper scale; I thought I'd died and gone to Heaven. I bought an old RCBS powder measure and used it for both flake and IMR powders; it consistently stayed within 0.1 grains. I still have dies that I inherited from my uncle; they date back to the 1940s and still work fine.

I've never had any difficulty in producing loads which gave groups of one MOA and often better.

I've always found reloading to be easy and relaxing. I'm stuck with figuring that anybody who has trouble reloading probably hadn't oughta.

 

[Dibbs]

Yanno, D.B., maybe you should look at the positives, here. You're being thorough enough to see
the powder meter issue,and that's the sign of a very good reloader. If it makes you feel any better
I spend a lot of time double checking measurements and weights.

 

[denton]

Hmmmm..... Once upon a time I was getting erratic dumps from my powder measure. I took it apart and looked carefully, and found a bunch of molding flash that needed to be removed. It's worth a look.

 

[splattergun]

It doesn't matter what brand equipment one uses, if you want consistent results you need to use consistent technique. Pull the handle exactly the same every time. If you tap the powder measure, tap it exactly the same way every time, if you don't tap, then don't tap every time. Consistency in every motion gives predictable results.

There is a little variable in every powder measure. You need to know what to expect from your measure. I use the Auto drum without any of the problems you're experiencing.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Your in Alaska and it's winter time, If the air is cold and dry then how bad is the static where you are reloading? Your not wearing a fuzzy fleece or fuzzy bunny slippers are you?
When static gets bad in my reloading room I have to spray some static guard down into my measure (from a distance) or it will be miserable to use.
I don't even like to reload in the winter because of it.
Just something else to check.

 

[George P]

You can just use a dryer sheet instead of a spray

 

[kmw1954]

D.B. stick with it, you'll get it.
Yes there could be something wrong with the measure as I have sent mine back twice already as it jumped the gear and locked up. Last time they sent it back there was a list of everything they replaced and I was surprised they didn't just replace the whole thing. When I bought mine it was right after they came out and it was also leaking horribly. The Drum was a smooth finish like it popped out of a mold. This last time it returned the drum looked like it was turned on a lath and not shinny. All that was over a year ago and since I got it back last time it has been spot on consistent and no leaking. I'm using AA#2, #5, HP-38 and Silhouette and have no leaks. I have been using this measure on a turret press, Pro1000 and a new Auto Breech Lock Pro. So that is three different presses and it has been consistent on all three.

I also use a Lee Auto Disk measure that came with my Pro1000 and when I got this measure I took the time to run powder thru each cavity that I would use for pistol powders and after repeated drops I recorded the average for each cavity and recorded that in my log notebook. I did this with each powder. Surprisingly I found that when I came back to use it again the powder drops didn't match. The current weighed drops were consistent and repeatable but they were lighter by .2gr than the drops I was getting in the previous use. And yes I checked all six cavities on the disk and there was a consistent .2gr difference throughout. So did the powder density change over time?

Lastly I too can attest that static electricity and air movement can cause havoc on a beam scale.

 

[Blue68f100]

My work in Alaska North slope dealt with dealing with Tulleric Currents (not sure of the spelling) . This constant change in magnetic field drove our equipment nuts. The only way we got around it was to setup a reference cell which we used to auto correct our readings. So if your having a storm going on there is not much you can do but wait for it to settle down. There was always calm time which made it easy on us.

Like others have said you just need to take all the necessary steps to make sure all your equipment is working correctly. Powder dispensers can be a pain if your have a static problem, equipment not cleaned and setup properly. Setup issues are most new comers have issues. Would be nice if you could find a mentor to help you alone. Give Lee a call and see what they have to say. Lee sells a lot of gear at low cost, most of it works but not as smoothly as others. But very usable for those on a budget.

 

[CoalTrain49]

've always found reloading to be easy and relaxing. I'm stuck with figuring that anybody who has trouble reloading probably hadn't oughta.

So true. It's like mowing your lawn, you either love it or hate it. Me, I love mowing my lawn. I just fire up a big cigar and sail across that big green ocean with a smile on my face. When I'm done I grab a beer and enjoy the smell of that fresh cut grass.

I feel the same about reloading. It isn't something I need to do, it's something I want to do.

 

[kwg020]

Now is the time to take the loader off of the press and clean it. It's also a good time to leave it off the press and use it solo. If the load data smooth's out then you know it is because it is on the press and somewhere there is a variable.

kwg

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Okay. Well first thanks again for all the responses. (I sometimes fear someone is going to say "****" about this.)

I shut down the HVAC in the garage when I'm working, so air flow is a non issue. Static could be a problem, and I do have dryer sheets for that purpose, however, I thought of it only the context of the powder measure, not the scale. So I'll have to give attention tot hat from now on.

If the unit won't work on press, then I guess I don't need it. It's a turret press; if I have to remove the powder measure from the press, then I essentially have a single stage press. That's fine for precision rifle ammo (I'm using it as a single stage for that anyway - and that included weighing every single charge.) But that ain't gonna fly for loading 500+ rounds of revolver ammo at a time.

I took a "cooling off" break for a while and went back to it. I got it to throw 3.5 - 3.8 grains; as bad as I shoot, perhaps I should shut up about it.

Since some have suggested I may have a bad Auto Drum but the Auto Drum is, overall, a decent piece of gear, I think I will just buy a second one and try that out. That will either prove my original to be good or bad and/or I'll have second one; at that point, I ca just leave them set up for caliber specific use and never have to adjust them again.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I hope you work it out just don't quit.

I use an older Pro Auto-Disk and it works well enough and it's on the press.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

My work in Alaska North slope dealt with dealing with Tulleric Currents (not sure of the spelling) . This constant change in magnetic field drove our equipment nuts. The only way we got around it was to setup a reference cell which we used to auto correct our readings. So if your having a storm going on there is not much you can do but wait for it to settle down. There was always calm time which made it easy on us.

When you say "storm," are you referring to that caused by a CME, or just a winter snow storm? the reason I ask is because the beam scale has a magnetic damper on it. I don't think we're in the midst of such a storm at the moment, because it would turn up in ham radio on the HF bands as well. However, you've alerted me to something that I would not have thought of in a zillion years as I always connect that to electrical/electronic issues.

 

[Tilos]

Okay. Well first thanks again for all the responses. (I sometimes fear someone is going to say "****" about this.)

I shut down the HVAC in the garage when I'm working, so air flow is a non issue. Static could be a problem, and I do have dryer sheets for that purpose, however, I thought of it only the context of the powder measure, not the scale. So I'll have to give attention tot hat from now on.

If the unit won't work on press, then I guess I don't need it. It's a turret press; if I have to remove the powder measure from the press, then I essentially have a single stage press. That's fine for precision rifle ammo (I'm using it as a single stage for that anyway - and that included weighing every single charge.) But that ain't gonna fly for loading 500+ rounds of revolver ammo at a time.

I took a "cooling off" break for a while and went back to it. I got it to throw 3.5 - 3.8 grains; as bad as I shoot, perhaps I should shut up about it.

Since some have suggested I may have a bad Auto Drum but the Auto Drum is, overall, a decent piece of gear, I think I will just buy a second one and try that out. That will either prove my original to be good or bad and/or I'll have second one; at that point, I ca just leave them set up for caliber specific use and never have to adjust them again.

I don't own a turret and have not loaded with one but could see where the indexing that moves the powder measure laterally could affect the consistency of the metered amount of powder.
I expected suggestions to add a powder baffle but don't think I've read any here...yet.
I stumbled onto a guy on e-bay selling powder weights, opposite of a baffle, I know, but they got good reviews, so I made one to try.
It did cut my variation by half, and it might help you too.
The one's sold on ebay are more elaborate with a top cap and guide rod but my DIY wooden weight seems to work fine.

Ok, It's on a disc pro, but believe it'll work on an Auto Drum too.
I just cut a plug of wood with a hole-saw, put a bolt thru the center hole, put it in a drill, and filed the OD down until it would drop to the bottom of the hopper, done.

Or think about switching to the Auto Disc Pro...no gears, no bolt tension, no adjustments.
I use a spring set-up anchored on the sizing die to return the PM, something you could do on a Turret:

 

[rskent]

In the mean time, I've got enough revolver ammo for about two more matches and then I'm out. I could just throw whatever unknown or unreliably known amount of powder just to make up some ammo to keep going, but to be honest, my scores have been plummeting like the Titanic and, while it probably isn't the ammo, I can't help but think that it is. (Because it's easier to blame the ammo than my lack of skill.)

Shooting is mostly mental, if you don’t trust your ammunition it can be a major distraction and have a definite impact on your scores.





What powder do you use? Is there a powder that you could use that meters better with your equipment?