Sometimes Breaking only One Rule is Enough

[Craig_AR]

We are usually told that generally breaking only one of the three (or four) Rules may be dangerous, but it takes breaking two to be truly dangerous.
An assistant district attorney recently proved that it is enough to break just one. teamed with sloppy handling, generating a negligent discharge (accidental in his telling) to shoot himself in the leg (yeah, foot would have been more poetic).
COURTS FULL REPORT: Asst. DA Injured Following ‘Accidental Shooting’ At Effingham Courthouse
From the report:

ADA Breedon [the ADA who shot himself]surmises that the weapons [sic] trigger caught a button on his jacket and discharges. ADA Breedon does recall looking and observing that his finger is on the weapon’s frame following the discharge.

So the one rule broken: Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction / pointed at something you are willing to destroy.
Apparently it was loaded, because it was in use (EDC) and his finger was off the trigger.
But he was definitely stupidly negligent.

 

[Kleanbore]

So the one rule broken: Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction / pointed at something you are willing to destroy.

Most people break that rule whan the gun is in its holster. Though I try to avoid it, that alsso happens when holstering.

That's why I prefer pistols with grip safeties.

 

[JohnKSa]

Yet another discharge that could have been avoided if people would just get it through their heads that carry guns are not for show and tell. Your carry gun is for self-defense. Unless you need it for self-defense, don't pull it out in public.

According to the report, nobody saw what caused the discharge. The person holding the gun says he was "lowering his hand" after having drawn the gun and that's when it went off. He says that AFTER the discharge, he looked to see where his finger was and it was off the trigger at that point but he does not claim to know where it was at the time of the discharge nor does the report include any claim that he never touched the trigger. Even assuming that his statement about where the finger was "following the discharge" is accurate, I don't think that's absolute proof of where the finger was at the actual time of the discharge.

Based on his statement, I think it's certainly possible that the trigger caught on something when he was lowering his hand. I also think it's also possible that he pulled the trigger unintentionally but then reflexively took his finger off the trigger before he looked down at the gun. I also think it's possible that he knows he pulled the trigger but came up with a plausible story instead of admitting to that.

 

[Jeff White]

I’ve been around some NDs, investigated one, people have a tendency to put themselves in the best light. I wouldn’t be surprised if his finger was on the trigger but he won’t admit it to himself.

A fellow officer nearly shot me in the foot with an ND he had when he adjusted the position of his off duty weapon on his hip. It was in a cheap holster that didn’t cover the trigger. To this day he swears the thumb break tightened up enough to make the hammer on his S&W 39 push the firing pin into a light primer.

I’m pretty sure that he defeated the thumb break like he was going to draw and pressed the trigger when he adjusted the holster position on his belt. A proper holster and more training would have prevented the ND. Fortunately there were no injuries. Missed my foot by 6 inches and spattered mud up on my jeans.

 

[starnbar]

We are usually told that generally breaking only one of the three (or four) Rules may be dangerous, but it takes breaking two to be truly dangerous.
An assistant district attorney recently proved that it is enough to break just one. teamed with sloppy handling, generating a negligent discharge (accidental in his telling) to shoot himself in the leg (yeah, foot would have been more poetic).
COURTS FULL REPORT: Asst. DA Injured Following ‘Accidental Shooting’ At Effingham Courthouse
From the report:

So the one rule broken: Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction / pointed at something you are willing to destroy.
Apparently it was loaded, because it was in use (EDC) and his finger was off the trigger.
But he was definitely stupidly negligent.

I know this NOBODY is gonna freely admit that they had their finger on the trigger after 25 years on the job I have heard EVERY EXCUSE IN THE WORLD.

 

[edwardware]

An assistant district attorney recently proved that it is enough to break just one.

I don't think he did. I think he proved himself a liar, and a careless knucklehead.

The extraordinary claim that the gun fired without pulling the trigger requires extraordinary proof; all I see is perfectly usual "I din'doo nuffin'"-ism.

 

[earlthegoat2]

That’s the most important one and the one I think should really stand apart from the rest. It is the one rule, that if broken, WILL cause serious damage if any of the others are broken.

This one really isn’t much different than the rule about knowing what is beyond your target. Pretty much the same thing just an expansion of someone wants to take one or more of them too literally.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Yet another discharge that could have been avoided if people would just get it through their heads that carry guns are not for show and tell. Your carry gun is for self-defense. Unless you need it for self-defense, don't pull it out in public.

This piece of gun handling etiquette should be published far and wide, repeatedly, and at every opportunity!!

A loaded, holstered handgun should stay in the holster unless 1) at a range, or 2) when needed for self-defense.

 

[lemaymiami]

Been reading and studying reports about negligent discharges (mostly but not always in the law enforcement community) for many years (and been around one or two as well). The excuses afterwards all tend, with an occasional variation, to blame some mechanical factor - since it couldn't have been operator error (or just plain negligence...).

That goes along with the shooter's story in more than one incident on the street where someone was killed or injured... I can hear it still... "the gun just went off" since they can't admit - even to him (or her) self that they've done something so awful... A smart and skilled investigator keeps silent and allows the shooter to bury themselves (on tape if at all possible...).

Glad I'm long out of that world...

 

[MedWheeler]

One rule: Do not allow the trigger to be moved rearward relative to the frame when doing so would be bad. (There are other rules for determining when such movement would be bad.)

Finger, coat button, whatever, moved the trigger rearward relative to the frame, and gun pointed at anything other than designated target made it bad.

All of our guns are routinely pointed at something other than a designated target, so we follow that one rule about preventing trigger movement.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Most people break that rule whan the gun is in its holster.

This is one reason I just cannot bring myself to go with appendix carry and certainly not shooting drills requiring reholstering with appendix carry.

A loaded, holstered handgun should stay in the holster unless 1) at a range, or 2) when needed for self-defense.

3) being unloaded (as to be serviced, stored, etc.)
4) being stored loaded
5) being surrendered to an LEO...

 

[jmorris]

Was he carrying the same gun Baldwin was holding when it “just went off” and killed the woman on the movie set?

If so we need to destroy all the people that have the magic that makes these guns shoot people without human involvement….

It is a good “strategy/tactic” to avoid careless people though. Their standing or title makes no difference.

 

[Craig_AR]

This is one reason I just cannot bring myself to go with appendix carry and certainly not shooting drills requiring reholstering with appendix carry.

In general, many folks consider the "do not point" rule to apply to firearms that are not in a proper case, back, or holster. Thus, we do not worry about the direction of an encased gun when carrying it in its bag or case. For this interpretation, a "proper holster" is one that has appropriate retention and also completely covers the trigger.
With the above understanding, a handgun in a proper holster, whether carried appendix, strong side, or kidney, or shoulder, is not breaking the rule until it is unholstered.
As for the specific case of appendix carry, yes, without proper training and adherence to the correct steps for both draw and re-holstering, it is possible to muzzle yourself pulling it out and putting it back. I have had multiple live instructors work with me on the correct procedures for both. Appendix carry can be safe, and not break the pointing rule IF you learn and follow the right steps.

 

[Zerodefect]

We could make a weak argument, that he technically broke two rules.

But it doesn't matter. Follow the rules, and hopefully, that one rule save's your butt, when you accidentally break another one.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In general, many folks consider the "do not point" rule to apply to firearms that are not in a proper case, back, or holster. Thus, we do not worry about the direction of an encased gun when carrying it in its bag or case. For this interpretation, a "proper holster" is one that has appropriate retention and also completely covers the trigger.
With the above understanding, a handgun in a proper holster, whether carried appendix, strong side, or kidney, or shoulder, is not breaking the rule until it is unholstered.
As for the specific case of appendix carry, yes, without proper training and adherence to the correct steps for both draw and re-holstering, it is possible to muzzle yourself pulling it out and putting it back. I have had multiple live instructors work with me on the correct procedures for both. Appendix carry can be safe, and not break the pointing rule IF you learn and follow the right steps.

I like this guy. He proclaims how safe appendix carry is. It is safe because part of the time he is only likely to shoot off his penis or right testicle, which somehow he rationalizes as being okay because it isn't his femoral artery, LOL.



But hey, if you are comfortable with it, that is fine for you. It is NOT right for me and I won't do it.

 

[luzyfuerza]

It isn't clear from your post, but I'm guessing that you feel that these three activities

3) being unloaded (as to be serviced, stored, etc.)
4) being stored loaded
5) being surrendered to an LEO...

are exceptions to the "don't draw unless you're at a range or need your EDC for real" standard.

True?

Here's what I do in those circumstances:

Unloading happens only in a place where it is safe to shoot. Plan ahead. If its time to clean and inspect my EDC, I unload at the range or other spot where its safe to shoot, and reholster or case the UNLOADED gun. The unloaded gun comes out of the holster or case where I'm going to do my inspection or cleaning.

When my EDC comes off my body at the end of the day, the loaded gun and the holster come off together, as a unit. The loaded gun is stored in the holster. It goes on in the morning without ever having left the holster.

If "surrendering" a loaded EDC to LEO, the same procedure is followed. If my EDC is "being removed" by an LEO, I'll ask them to follow this procedure, but ultimately they'll decide what approach they want to use.

NDs don't occur when loaded guns are safely contained in proper holsters. They DO happen when a loaded gun is out of the holster undergoing some administrative procedure. If loaded EDCs remain holstered except where it is safe to shoot or they are needed for defense, then NDs from these guns can be largely eliminated.

 

[Zerodefect]

I have a deep concealment holster, it's a pita to reholster.

I put my pistol in said holster before putting the pants on.

If I actually had to shoot and/or reholster, I can lock the slide back to do it safely. A sloppy but effective method. Heck, you could just clear the pistol, then holster it. Put the mag back in, once holstered (empty chamber is crap, but hey, hopefully you're done for the day at this point).

 

[Craig_AR]

I have a deep concealment holster, it's a pita to reholster.

That is why some advanced instructors will not allow such holsters (like th\e urban carry pouch) in their classes. Students have to be able to re-holster safely and easily for the next drill.

 

[Zerodefect]

I wouldn't allow it at class. It's a one and done holster. Pistol goes in, and it stays in forever.

 

[Cayle]

A fellow officer nearly shot me in the foot with an ND he had when he adjusted the position of his off duty weapon on his hip. It was in a cheap holster that didn’t cover the trigger. To this day he swears the thumb break tightened up enough to make the hammer on his S&W 39 push the firing pin into a light primer.

I’m pretty sure that he defeated the thumb break like he was going to draw and pressed the trigger when he adjusted the holster position on his belt. A proper holster and more training would have prevented the ND. Fortunately there were no injuries. Missed my foot by 6 inches and spattered mud up on my jeans.

The 39 has a hammer block safety. The only way that revolver can fire is if the trigger is pulled. Even if the thumb break tripped the trigger the firing pin couldn't reach the primer, even a light one, without the trigger depressed.

 

[Jeff White]

The 39 has a hammer block safety. The only way that revolver can fire is if the trigger is pulled. Even if the thumb break tripped the trigger the firing pin couldn't reach the primer, even a light one, without the trigger depressed.

I know but he convinced the chief that's what happened.

 

[Kleanbore]

The 39 has a hammer block safety. The only way that revolver can fire is if the trigger is pulled. Even if the thumb break tripped the trigger the firing pin couldn't reach the primer, even a light one, without the trigger depressed.

The 39 is a semi-auto, and the hammer block only works when the safety is on "safe". It is intended to block the hammer when the hammer is dropped.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Being as active as I have on competition shooting has made me pretty relaxed when handling guns. I'm still very aware but I know what I'm doing and I pay attention to what others are doing.

I haven't shown anyone my EDC but have had several folks at work want to show me theirs once they find out I'm into guns.

No big deal, standard actions for handling any firearm. Drop mag and check chamber with gun pointed in a safe direction. As is so common most are carrying on a empty chamber.

As far as where to carry on ones person, I'm about as far away from Apendix as one can get. I carry OWB at 3-3:30 but still concealed. If my gun were to by some act of God go off in the holster it ain't hitting anything but Jean.

And I can clear garment/holster and get a COM shot off from 15yds in 1.7 - 2 seconds pretty consistently. I'm happy and confident with that, without having to worry about shooting myself while in the holster.


But you folks are certainly able to do as you please.