Soon to be obsolete rounds?

[TTv2]

As an FFL its nice to know you think so highly of us. I have a batch of 9mm on my shelf retailing for .49 cents per round that I paid, from the factory, .44 cents a round. Us little guys don't have the liquidity to invest in oodles of ammo to crate up in back in case the supply lines turn sour, and even if we did this nonsense has been going for over two years now. If my whole store started out packed floor to ceiling with ammo in 2019 it would have been a drop in the bucket. I pay what it takes to get the ammo I need for my customers, and they pay that amount plus 20%.
>because that's not my problem
When there's nothing left in this country but big box stores and their "better business models" you're going to have a hard time buying any guns that the big, monied, and politically sensitive Walmarts of the world don't feel like letting you transfer. I'd enjoy charging you $200 for a transfer fee though. "Gotta keep the doors open."

If the life and death of your business rests on your ammo sales and limited ability to buy in large enough quantities to compete with the big boys online, you and really every other brick and mortar FFL got a problem with how you do business and perhaps you should stop selling ammo altogether because I, and others, are not running a charity.

And since you made that little quip about $200 transfer fees, at least now I know if online gun sales do get banned that you guys are going to move to sell all your firearm inventory at MSRP because of the lack of competition and play right into the hands of what the anti's want: higher prices for guns.

At the very least if the business ever does go belly up you can always transition into a used car salesman. You'd fit right in.

 

[DoubleMag]

The ONLY one I can see being toast is the 25acp. That said, I don't want shot by it !
(sorry took so long to post, had to STOP LAUGHING 1st >> the fo'ty is going away...)

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Maybe you might want to look up the definition again, it doesn't just mean no longer in use. See the second application which loosely translates to not in common use. Nobody said it was extinct.

Obsolete:
adjective:
no longer in general use; fallen into disuse:
of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:
no longer in use, especially, out of use for at least the past century:
to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate:

Just because law enforcement agencies have went to other rounds I don't think the 40S&W fits any of these descriptions of obsolete. The millions of guns out there will continue to be in general use by the public and it was certainly not replaced by something newer or better.

This has been a revolving cycle with law enforcement and military for centuries. They want something more powerful but then find their people can't shoot it as well and then they dumb it down and next thing you know they develop something more powerful again as if it will not have the recoil that a comparable round had in the past.

In the 19th century black powder days it was the 45 colt that almost immediately had a 45 government round created because they found most of the troops couldn't handle the recoil of the 45 Colt round.

38 special in the 20th century revolver era was the answer to recoil and leading into the 21st century it's been a back and forth between 9mm, 40, and 10mm.

 

[Thomasss]

uH NO. For some strange reason hand gun ammo seems to stay around. How about the Browning short or S&W short. It still can be had if you want it.
Now think of all the rifle short magnums that came out about 10 years ago and how much of that stuff is still around. Not much.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

IIRC the 45 Long Colt was too long to fit into the issued S&W Schofield revolvers so the shorter government round remained the standard issue ammunition.
Nothing is "obsolete" or "obsolescent" as long as it can do the job. People still hunt with bows and arrows and crossbows, muzzle loaders, etc.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

ANY cartridge that ends in "ACP" will likely survive in the U.S. at least. .41 Mag has a serious cult following. .40 S & W pistols are ALL OVER THE PLACE.
.45 GAP will survive if only because Glock is a prideful company that we make sure that it does. .327 Mag....again....has a dedicated niche market of people won over by the caliber.

 

[Legionnaire]

A better word would be "obsolescent." Many may fall out of favor or otherwise become less popular but never disappear completely.

 

[mcb]

IIRC the 45 Long Colt was too long to fit into the issued S&W Schofield revolvers so the shorter government round remained the standard issue ammunition.
Nothing is "obsolete" or "obsolescent" as long as it can do the job. People still hunt with bows and arrows and crossbows, muzzle loaders, etc.

But the definition of obsolete has nothing to do with if said obsolete item can or cannot do its "job". The definition of obsolete is: 1) no longer in general use; fallen into disuse: 2) of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:

ie The carburetor in modern cars is obsolete, replaced by the fuel injection system. The carburetor still works and there are still older cars on the road using carburetors but there are vanishingly few auto makers that are still using a carburetor in new vehicles.

Context always helps the discussion of obsolete and cartridges.

The 45 Colt is very obsolete in the LEO context. The 45 Colt is far from obsolete in SASS competition. (I would argue 40S&W is rapidly reaching this status too, just replace SASS with USPSA)

30-06 is obsolete as a US military combat cartridge. The 30-06 is far from obsolete among deer and elk hunters in the US.

 

[kje54]

Obsolete:
adjective:
no longer in general use; fallen into disuse:
of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:
no longer in use, especially, out of use for at least the past century:
to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate:

Just because law enforcement agencies have went to other rounds I don't think the 40S&W fits any of these descriptions of obsolete. The millions of guns out there will continue to be in general use by the public and it was certainly not replaced by something newer or better.

This has been a revolving cycle with law enforcement and military for centuries. They want something more powerful but then find their people can't shoot it as well and then they dumb it down and next thing you know they develop something more powerful again as if it will not have the recoil that a comparable round had in the past.

In the 19th century black powder days it was the 45 colt that almost immediately had a 45 government round created because they found most of the troops couldn't handle the recoil of the 45 Colt round.

38 special in the 20th century revolver era was the answer to recoil and leading into the 21st century it's been a back and forth between 9mm, 40, and 10mm.

You nailed it with the "no longer in general use". Show me proof that there are millions of .40 S&Ws out there still. You claim there are millions of .40 S&Ws out there, I can't disprove it you can't prove it which leads to the point of comparisons. How many compared to say 9mm? .380? .357? .45ACP? All of which are in massive common usage these days. Is use of the .40 increasing or decreasing? Yeah one can blame cycles but I doubt it in this case, The FBI found the loads were no more effective than the 9mm and the 9mm has a higher mag capacity, this is the reason they went back to the 9mm.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Don't know about the others, but doubt if .32ACP is going away soon. Certainly not here.

 

[mcb]

You nailed it with the "no longer in general use". Show me proof that there are millions of .40 S&Ws out there still. You claim there are millions of .40 S&Ws out there, I can't disprove it you can't prove it which leads to the point of comparisons. How many compared to say 9mm? .380? .357? .45ACP? All of which are in massive common usage these days. Is use of the .40 increasing or decreasing? Yeah one can blame cycles but I doubt it in this case, The FBI found the loads were no more effective than the 9mm and the 9mm has a higher mag capacity, this is the reason they went back to the 9mm.

It's hard to argue the 40S&W is not on a fairly steep decline. Many LEO agency have moved away from it. Its loosing ground to 9mm fast in the CCW market. We see more 40S&W used guns, especially LEO trade-ins on shelves. The most ominous sign is many manufactures have reduced or even completely drop the cartridge from their catalog. A few examples: Sig being most notable, completely dropping all 40S&W handguns. Springfield Armor only offers it in the old original XD and none of their new offerings. Ruger does currently show a 40S&W handgun, only carbines. etc.

That said it is not yet obsolete as there are still manufactures making firearms in it and there are still LEO agency using it despite the general shift to 9mm. USPSA is also doing its part to keep the cartridge relevant though Limited/Limited 10 (the two division dependent on 40S&W) are diminishing and being overshadowed by new divisions where 9mm is competitive.

 

[FROGO207]

Good to know we can use the bandwidth to argue the merits of what is not so commonly available commercial ammo. The other side would be to list the 20 most sold cartridges and declare all the others as relagated into the dust bin of history. I can still get brass for a 44 1/2 Single Shot Stevens and 30 Remington ammo. Same for 351 Winchester Self Loader. Many others as well. Carry on with the discussion, it's fun reading.

 

[twarr1]

I have guns in the common chamberings but I also like to collect the oddball stuff. ‘
To me;
Uncommon - See 41 Magnum. Ammo still manufactured, may be hard to find.
Obsolete - Ammunition isn’t produced but components are still available.
Extinct - Ammo not available, components not available. I can’t think of any caliber that’s truly extinct off the top of my head, although I’m sure there are some. People even reload pin fire!
Obviously my definitions are about as useless as Internet Influencer.

 

[kje54]

It's hard to argue the 40S&W is not on a fairly steep decline. Many LEO agency have moved away from it. Its loosing ground to 9mm fast in the CCW market. We see more 40S&W used guns, especially LEO trade-ins on shelves. The most ominous sign is many manufactures have reduced or even completely drop the cartridge from their catalog. A few examples: Sig being most notable, completely dropping all 40S&W handguns. Springfield Armor only offers it in the old original XD and none of their new offerings. Ruger does currently show a 40S&W handgun, only carbines. etc.

That said it is not yet obsolete as there are still manufactures making firearms in it and there are still LEO agency using it despite the general shift to 9mm. USPSA is also doing its part to keep the cartridge relevant though Limited/Limited 10 (the two division dependent on 40S&W) are diminishing and being overshadowed by new divisions where 9mm is competitive.

The argument is "headed towards becoming obsolete" at least that's the argument made by the person in the video (and myself). As for the word obsolete it would appear many here only view it's usage as completely gone, no longer used yet part of that definition also defines it as no longer in common use. It would appear many here are arguing based on their understanding of the definition which does not encompass the whole definition but only the one usage.

 

[mcb]

So do we differentiate between cartridges and firearms when talking obsolete?

ie 9mm and 357 Magnum are still a mass produced cartridges and there are mass produced firearms chambered in those cartridge. I think most would agree these two examples are far from obsolete.

455 Webley and 38 S&W ammunition is still produced by one or more large manufactures and several smaller manufactures but as far as I know no one is making firearms in either cartridge. Are these two cartridges obsolete? I would argue yes, despite how much I like and use both.

Then we have the MBAssociates GyroJet and Dardick Tround they are no longer making ammo for these and no one is making firearms chambered is these cartridges. The ammo itself is nearly impossible for the home reloader to manufacture. I think most would agree these two cartridge and the firearms they are chambered in are complete obsolete in nearly all contexts we could contrive.

---------

And on a more personal bent why does anyone it this thread care if the cartridge they choose to use for some task is obsolete or not, there are lots of obsolete cartridges especially if we put a more focused context on it. For the past year+ I have primarily used guns chambered in cartridges I would have a hard time arguing are not obsolete with a straight face. I am carrying a 455 Webley as my sidearm and hunting deer with a 30 Remington AR. They are both obsolete by a broad or narrow reading of the dictionary definition of the word. One an old cartridge one a new cartridge both obsolete as a slide-rule as far as a marketable firearm goes and that makes zero difference to me. I enjoy the two cartridges, they do what I need, and I have the resources I need to keep them running for a modest time into the future (longer than my current infatuations are likely to keep me using them). There viability as a product, or acceptance by a wider group (ie LEO, military, even other hunters) makes no difference to my personally use. I like my obsolete cartridges as well as my new hotness cartridges. My obsolete 30 RAR sits next to my new hotness 6mm Creedmoor in the gun cabinet and they nary have a cross word with each other.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Most of my guns fire rounds that are obsolescent - I collect milsurps and hunting weapons from the 1960s on back.
Not a few are obsolete - a number of them are cap-and-ball or flintlock firearms.
A few are functionally extinct - for example, right now I'm working up a black powder load for a .32 S&W revolver... .

 

[kje54]

So do we differentiate between cartridges and firearms when talking obsolete?

ie 9mm and 357 Magnum are still a mass produced cartridges and there are mass produced firearms chambered in those cartridge. I think most would agree these two examples are far from obsolete.

455 Webley and 38 S&W ammunition is still produced by one or more large manufactures and several smaller manufactures but as far as I know no one is making firearms in either cartridge. Are these two cartridges obsolete? I would argue yes, despite how much I like and use both.

Then we have the MBAssociates GyroJet and Dardick Tround they are no longer making ammo for these and no one is making firearms chambered is these cartridges. The ammo itself is nearly impossible for the home reloader to manufacture. I think most would agree these two cartridge and the firearms they are chambered in are complete obsolete in nearly all contexts we could contrive.

---------

And on a more personal bent why does anyone it this thread care if the cartridge they choose to use for some task is obsolete or not, there are lots of obsolete cartridges especially if we put a more focused context on it. For the past year+ I have primarily used guns chambered in cartridges I would have a hard time arguing are not obsolete with a straight face. I am carrying a 455 Webley as my sidearm and hunting deer with a 30 Remington AR. They are both obsolete by a broad or narrow reading of the dictionary definition of the word. One an old cartridge one a new cartridge both obsolete as a slide-rule as far as a marketable firearm goes and that makes zero difference to me. I enjoy the two cartridges, they do what I need, and I have the resources I need to keep them running for a modest time into the future (longer than my current infatuations are likely to keep me using them). There viability as a product, or acceptance by a wider group (ie LEO, military, even other hunters) makes no difference to my personally use. I like my obsolete cartridges as well as my new hotness cartridges. My obsolete 30 RAR sits next to my new hotness 6mm Creedmoor in the gun cabinet and they nary have a cross word with each other.

I don't care if something is obsolete or not especially being a reenactor/living historian, 99.9% of what we use is obsolete. Heck people are still using the obsolete Windows XP, that's their choice not mine. I just though it would be an interesting discussion as seems to have happened.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Again, instead of "obsolete" and "obsolescent" I would say "discontinued", "no longer supported". In the military, no longer issued.The pin fires, the large bore rimfires. No large or small scale manufacture that I know of,I doubt you find a manufacturer that would even do a special run and AFAIK there are no home rimfire reloading kits. The B-29 was declared obsolete by the Air Force decades ago but I saw one take off and land at Trenton Airport a few months ago. The Air Force is not supporting it, but the Commemorative Air Force is.

 

[Monac]

At the very least I'd still like to hear your opinions. Mine is largely coming from what I've seen in tests with the .25 and I cannot say it's better than anything except .22 Short and is at least more reliable than all .22 rimfires.

Well, first off, part of what I thought turned out to be wrong: I thought 25 ACP and 32 S&W were pretty close in kinetic energy, which would give the 25 an edge in penetration. That is not true. Wikipedia gives the 88 grain 32 S&W load 115 ft/lbs, versus only 65 ft/lbs for the 50 grain 25 ACP load, which is a significant difference (in percentage terms at least).

The rest of my opinion was that the 25 could be put into guns that were more useful for self defense; not only were they generally smaller, and flatter in particular, they could hold more shots, be fired faster, and reloaded faster (although if your self defense problem requires a fast reload, a 25 was the wrong answer in the first place.)

But that is an argument that 25 ACP allows more useful guns to be designed around it, not that the cartridge is actually more effective. I have to say I was wrong about that, and that King Umberto I of Italy, President McKinley, Mayor Cermak of Chicago, and the architect Stanford White would all be on your side.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

You nailed it with the "no longer in general use". Show me proof that there are millions of .40 S&Ws out there still. You claim there are millions of .40 S&Ws out there, I can't disprove it you can't prove it which leads to the point of comparisons. How many compared to say 9mm? .380? .357? .45ACP? All of which are in massive common usage these days. Is use of the .40 increasing or decreasing? Yeah one can blame cycles but I doubt it in this case, The FBI found the loads were no more effective than the 9mm and the 9mm has a higher mag capacity, this is the reason they went back to the 9mm.

And as for numbers I can't say for sure but considering in 2020 Glock had produced 20,000,000 guns alone my guess is just that one company has produced a couple million or more chambered in 40S&W considering at one time it was the hot item and the G22 was the most popular police service pistol made at one time and the 27 was the common backup. So if you are going to tell me with Sig, S&W, and all the others that millions aren't out there I think you are blowing smoke.

The point is it's just ridiculous that round was included with all of the modern recent production guns floating around. It would be like saying the 38 special was obsolete once law enforcement quit using it but there are just too many millions of guns chambered in that round that it will still be in common use with the general public. When I think of obsolete it means it's something you can't readily buy ammo if and when things level out you will be able to find 40S&W on about every gun store shelf. It will sell plenty well enough the ammo manufacturers will continue to produce it.

 

[kje54]

And as for numbers I can't say for sure but considering in 2020 Glock had produced 20,000,000 guns alone my guess is just that one company has produced a couple million or more chambered in 40S&W considering at one time it was the hot item and the G22 was the most popular police service pistol made at one time and the 27 was the common backup. So if you are going to tell me with Sig, S&W, and all the others that millions aren't out there I think you are blowing smoke.

The point is it's just ridiculous that round was included with all of the modern recent production guns floating around. It would be like saying the 38 special was obsolete once law enforcement quit using it but there are just too many millions of guns chambered in that round that it will still be in common use with the general public. When I think of obsolete it means it's something you can't readily buy ammo if and when things level out you will be able to find 40S&W on about every gun store shelf. It will sell plenty well enough the ammo manufacturers will continue to produce it.

Never claimed or inferred .40 S&W haven't been made in large numbers or by multiple manufacturers so I don't know where you came up with that. Also in the video the author stated and I paraphrase: becoming obsolete, not currently obsolete.

 

[DarkswordDX]

It's hard to argue the 40S&W is not on a fairly steep decline. Many LEO agency have moved away from it. Its loosing ground to 9mm fast in the CCW market. We see more 40S&W used guns, especially LEO trade-ins on shelves. The most ominous sign is many manufactures have reduced or even completely drop the cartridge from their catalog. A few examples: Sig being most notable, completely dropping all 40S&W handguns. Springfield Armor only offers it in the old original XD and none of their new offerings. Ruger does currently show a 40S&W handgun, only carbines. etc.

That said it is not yet obsolete as there are still manufactures making firearms in it and there are still LEO agency using it despite the general shift to 9mm. USPSA is also doing its part to keep the cartridge relevant though Limited/Limited 10 (the two division dependent on 40S&W) are diminishing and being overshadowed by new divisions where 9mm is competitive.

From the insider perspective I have to agree. My store no longer carries handguns in .40S&W, and worse is I haven't even been asked for one in half a year or better. We have the ammo, but it rots on the shelf. I have unironically sold more .32s (Charter Undercoverettes) in the past 6 months than I have .40s. I turn down trade ins on .40s now too, unless its a high end piece like a P226 or such, and without exaggeration I turn down 2-3 Springfield XD-40s, used, per week. Nobody wants them, even used and cheap. The local market here is just dead as a doornail.

Sure there are a ton of them already out there, but that could have been said once about .32-20s. And .40 is such a boring, basic bi*ch round that it lacks any kind of real enthusiast market the way more esoteric cartridges like .32H&R and .41mag have. Name a high end, classic, collectible gun in .40 that enough people worship to keep demand for the round alive. I can't think of any. I honestly won't be shocked if .40 disappears, in fact at the ridiculous rate that it's declining I'll be surprised if it doesn't.

 

[mcb]

From the insider perspective I have to agree. My store no longer carries handguns in .40S&W, and worse is I haven't even been asked for one in half a year or better. We have the ammo, but it rots on the shelf. I have unironically sold more .32s (Charter Undercoverettes) in the past 6 months than I have .40s. I turn down trade ins on .40s now too, unless its a high end piece like a P226 or such, and without exaggeration I turn down 2-3 Springfield XD-40s, used, per week. Nobody wants them, even used and cheap. The local market here is just dead as a doornail.

Sure there are a ton of them already out there, but that could have been said once about .32-20s. And .40 is such a boring, basic bi*ch round that it lacks any kind of real enthusiast market the way more esoteric cartridges like .32H&R and .41mag have. Name a high end, classic, collectible gun in .40 that enough people worship to keep demand for the round alive. I can't think of any. I honestly won't be shocked if .40 disappears, in fact at the ridiculous rate that it's declining I'll be surprised if it doesn't.

I can argue with you first paragraph, the cartridge is fading, faster than some want to admit.

But I disagree with the sentiments of the second paragraph. I really sort of like the 40 S&W cartridge. I own more 40S&W semi-auto handguns than all my other semi-auto's handgun cartridges combined, and this includes all three sizes of the original XD-40 (that poor bastard of a handgun). I have also put about 15-20k of round of 40S&W through a S&W 610 revolver. But I was a hardcore USPSA shooter for about 12 years.

I also would not be surprise if all or nearly all the manufactures stopped making handguns in 40S&W but at the same time there were so many made that I think my grand kids will still be able to buy 40S&W ammo just like I can still buy 38 S&W for revolvers made in my grand father's day. I certainly have enough 40S&W brass to keep me going for a few decades even if I get back into competition.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Also in the video the author stated and I paraphrase: becoming obsolete, not currently obsolete.

As I said, ain't gonna happen. The decline has already happened, it will be still be used years from now and ammo will still be produced in large numbers.

 

[Officers'Wife]

People tell me my 38 Super is obsolete yet I can still get ammunition and it puts a hole in anything I aim it at. It also fils the job I need it for rather well.

So... is it obsolete or just not as popular as the latest and greatest?