Sorry for more rookie scope questions

Discussion in 'Long Gun Accessories and Optics' started by mfer, Jun 27, 2017.

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  1. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    We are getting closer to agreement. I can see the adjustments breaking if a turret twister. Since I set and forget that isn't an issue for me. I still maintain based on experience that their are at least two sub $200.00 centerfire scopes of good quality, Burris Fullfield II and Minox ZV 3. I also maintain there are a number of sub $200.00 Rimfire scopes that will give a lifetime of trouble free service on a plinking .22, with the caveat that the turrets are only used for sighting in.

    Here is a link to what I think is a great article by John Barseness speaking to some points you've made and some I've made. He mentions owning some moderately priced scopes that have held up well. From some of his posts I know the Burris Fullfield II is one.

    http://www.24hourcampfire.com/index_realities_of_riflescope_manufacturing.html
     
  2. mfer

    mfer Member

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    So the $200 number, is that MSRP or Market? Leupold says vx1 is $299 but you can buy for $180.
     
  3. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    Definitely not a turret twister. I will resight for different guns and loads, and will adjust the magnification and focus as necessary, but otherwise leave everything alone.
     
  4. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    Market
     
  5. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    I am not sure how these threads get so off track, again, the guy is putting this on a .22lr plinker, he's not Chris Kyle trying to dial in on a thousand yard shot. The Nikon is perfectly fine and will serve the purpose. Also pointing out, Nikon has a lifetime warranty.
     
  6. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    So does the NC Star red dot someone just gave me, which was the subject of a recent thread...

    Not saying Nikon doesn't honor their warranties, but there are lifetime warranties and then there are "lifetime warranties." And you don't know which is which until you have the misfortune of having to find out first hand.
     
  7. mfer

    mfer Member

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    Its a forum for enthusiasts. I guess I knew in the back of my head what I was getting into. I do like quality stuff and have learned a lot here so I am thankful. It seemed more overwhelming in the beginning, but I'm starting to get it. I want a quality one without getting into the diminishing returns area.

    Thanks again everyone.
     
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  8. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    I think you would be happy with just about any Leupold. They're like the Volkswagen of scopes. Not quite as nice as an Audi, but they do everything the Audi does for a reasonable price and last just as long. I don't think you would see any diminishing returns. Going from the Leupold VX line to a Swarovski is where I think diminishing returns would enter the picture.
     
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  9. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    I believe you'll be happy with a Nikon ProStaff rimfire scope.
     
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  10. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    From my experience Nikon handles their warranty as well as Leupold, ive had scopes back to both. Both damaged by accident...pretty much the same accidents.

    Ive been a Nikon shooter for 20 years, i own both japan and Philippines made Nikons. Zero issues besides me falling on one and crushing the tube.
     
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  11. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    Do they have different levels of quality though, like Vortex et al?
     
  12. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    Yes, just like Leupold, Burris, Bushnell, Swarovski, Steiner, Zeiss, Nightforce and practically everyone else.
     
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  13. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Yeah, i cant say as to the very best tho. The models i currently have are, 1 is a pre-monarch, 3 are older prostaff, 1 is the newer style, and two buckmasters 2015s (which i consider a best buy, prostaff tube and price, but noticeably better glass). I just sold my old midway special M-223

    Ive used and owned few of the older Monarchs, and they were excellent, but for what i do I dont need the optical quality or repeatability of the more expensive scopes.

    With the prostaff, you get decent glass, acceptable repeatability on adjustments, and good durability. At least within my scope of experience. The buckmasters optics are better but ive seen no real difference in mechanical quality. My M-223 i spun the dials on a few times and that scope showed pretty good repeatability for a 250 dollar scope.
     
  14. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    That's not accurate. Leupold, Swarovski, Steiner, Zeiss, and Nightforce have some scopes that are more expensive than others, but they don't have different levels of quality. They make their products for an intended use, and whatever you get you can rest assured that it will hold up and serve you well for that purpose. It's just a simple matter of a 3-9x deer scope costing significantly less than say a loaded 1-8x. It's a matter of features, not basic quality.

    Vortex, Bushnell, Burris, Millet, etc. make some high quality scopes, but they also make a lot of crappy scopes with the same name. And what really gets my goat about those companies is that they make a lot of stuff where they sacrifice quality for features. They target people who want a scope for 100 bucks, or someone who wants a loaded 1-6x but only wants to pay 300 dollars for it. In general, the people who have the Razors and Elites are the only ones who rave about those brands, and I hear lots and lots of dissatisfied customers when it comes to the cheaper stuff.
     
  15. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    Do you own stock in Leupold or something? It's rare to see this level of conviction to a brand. Every brand has different tiers of products.

    Anyway, if I were looking for scopes I'd read through reviews of actual users.

    http://www.opticsplanet.com/nikon-prostaff-rimfire-3-9x40-matte-bdc-riflescope.html
     
  16. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    I don't think you even read my post. Every brand will have a range of prices, this is true, but that doesn't necessarily translate into different tiers of quality. What many brands do is sacrifice quality for features, and that is what I take issue with. With Leupold you get what you pay for, it's that simple. With the other guys you just never know, unless you pay for their premium line.
     
  17. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    How silly, of course they do. To prove a point I just called Leupold and asked the difference between a VX-1 and a VX-2. I was told the VX-2 has "better quality glass" and a "more robust and precise erector system".

    I prefer Leupold scopes over Nikon but it has nothing to do with Leupold holding up better. I see better through Leupold. I also know people who see better through Nikon. It has to do with the way each company specifies the glass to be ground and the coatings each company specifies. And since everyone's eyes are different they will see better through different brands of scopes than others. Within Nikon I see better through the original Buckmaster than I do a Monarch even though the Monarch has more expensive glass.
     
  18. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    True in many cases - Vortex comes to mind, and untrue in many cases.
     
  19. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    Again, you're confusing features with quality. What Leupold etc. do not do is put lipstick on a pig.

    For example, I have two old scopes, one from the 30s and one from the 60s or 70s. Actually 3 if you count the PU scope. By today's standards they're pretty much featureless. The glass isn't as clear as it could be by today's standards, the field of view isn't great, and they're fixed power. But they're every bit as serviceable today as they were when they were new, despite heavy use, and I daresay abuse. The adjustments are all intact, they hold zero, etc. They lack features, but the quality is still 100%.

    With people like Bushnell and Vortex you never know exactly what you're paying for, and I would tentatively put Nikon in that group as well just based on their prices (you can't make a good scope for $100 any more than you can put 10 gallons into a five gallon bucket). Maybe the glass is great at the expense of quality control, or using substandard materials in other areas. Or maybe you get turrets, parallax, illumination, and a large mag range all in a $300 scope but all of it's total junk and won't stand up to normal use, if it even works right in the first place. And what I've found about those types of companies is they get so good at cutting corners that they do it everywhere to increase profit margins. You can't trust them to make a basic 3-9x deer scope without cutting corners and keeping the price the same as their higher quality competition. You think you're getting their premium product, but what people don't realize is that it's hard for companies like that to keep their corner cutting habit from creeping into their premium products.

    BTW, you can always get better glass. You can spend four grand on a S&B, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily better quality than a cheaper alternative.

    There are also pros and cons to different erector assemblies, mostly in weight. If you have a very hard recoiling magnum then you have to go to the extra expense and weight to get an overbuilt erector assembly.

    Precision and tracking are also tradeoffs. Someone shooting a deer at 50-300 yards doesn't need 100% tracking or adjustment precision (they're going to hold over instead of adjusting turrets anyways). Someone trying to make precise shots at 1k yards does, especially if they're adjusting their turrets on the fly, in which case the adjustments have to match the calculations exactly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  20. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    I'll bow out here, I thought talking to Glock fans was maddening.
     
  21. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    I'm with you, I'm bowing out too. Some people seem to love going down with the ship.
     
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  22. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Two can play that game - I can say with certainty, this statement above is no more accurate for Leupold and Nightforce as it is for Nikon.

    My VX1's and 2's aren't in the same quality class as my Vx3's, VX6, nor Mark 4. My SHV isn't of the same quality as my BR or NXS, nor of the ATACR's and BEAST's I shoot against. My Prostaff and Buckmasters aren't of the same quality as my Monarch's... There are real reasons why one model price might be half that of another - and those differences aren't brand unique.

    For my money, I wouldn't buy another Leupold below a VX3. Better scopes can be had for the same price. There's really nothing which stands out about the Rifleman, VX1, or VX2 among their respective classes. Personally, even for the VX3 level, I have found the Bushnell Elite 6500's to have better quality glass and better tracking than the Leupolds. The VX3 4.5-14x50 is one of my favorite hunting scopes, and the VX3 2-8x is my favorite handgun scope, so I'm not biased against Leupold, but I'm not going to sell magical koolaid about Leupold as "a class above" when they don't earn it.
     
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  23. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    You probably know better than I do, but I stick to my original assertion that it is not possible to bring a decent scope of any kind to market for $100, or anywhere close. And that's doubly true for your $300 1-6s and $600 25x variables that I see everywhere these days. I've simply learned to distrust anyone who makes a habit of offering deals too good to be true, and it's served me very well.
     
  24. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    I said I was out but agree with you on certain points. There is no way I'd own a 25X scope that cost less than probably $1k minimum. I'm also suspicious of the low end 1-8 and 1-6 scopes.

    There is also one brand of 3-9 scope for a hundred dollars that is very decent and it's the Minox ZV 3 series from CameraLand. I don't know how they do it but they do. There are also a number of rimfire scopes in the $100.00 range that hold up fine. You can argue until you're blue in the face that it isn't so but I and several others have personal experience which says otherwise. Yet you with no personal experience(at least that you have stated) with these scopes say we are wrong. So we are idiots and you are the expert? I don't think so.
     
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  25. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    I have never looked into them before, but I have to admit I really like what I'm seeing so far. They don't appear to be trying to BS anyone, and it's refreshing to see a no nonsense product line.

    ETA: Doesn't look like a hundred dollar scope at all.



    I'm very tempted to try one. Of course clarity isn't everything. I would want to get my hands on one and see if the adjustments feel solid.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
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