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South African Dash Cam Video - Your Reaction In This Situation?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Fred Fuller, Jun 5, 2015.

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  1. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Unless things are hopelessly remote, it should be possible to get to a safer location before the car gives up.

    However, I'm not at all sure that they would give chase. Once the initial opportunity was blown, I think most likely response would be for the criminals to get as far away from the scene of the crime as possible.

    You are correct to point out that escaping the initial confrontation by using your vehicle as a ram, if necessary, doesn't insure that the situation will be safely resolved.

    Of course, that is true of any deadly force encounter. Being able to pull a firearm and return fire doesn't insure that you win a gunfight. Having a gun doesn't insure you'll be able to access it in time. Being an accomplished martial artist doesn't mean that you'll automatically win a fight.

    Just as the possibility of an unsuccessful outcome in a gunfight isn't usually touted as a reason to never use a firearm in self-defense, the possibility of an unsuccessful outcome from an evasive maneuver involving vehicle-to-vehicle contact shouldn't provide a reason to avoid any vehicle-to-vehicle contact in a deadly force encounter.
     
  2. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Being exactly that.... You are more than likely to die on the roads here, but its not by gunfire or hijackings.

    Its from..
    A) They dont know how to drive and do so at 120mph+ everywhere..
    B) They have no respect for any type of traffic law, or other vehicles on the road.
     
  3. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Armchair Quarterbacking

    This video emphasizes the need for extreme vigilance and defensive driving in hot spots like S. Africa where carjackings are common.

    Don't let yourself get boxed in on the middle lanes, and don't follow too close. Off road vehicles are useful for light curb jumping if necessary.

    Reviewing the video, the victim lost the fight before it began by driving too close. His reaction time/window was less than a second, and 1-2 seconds at best.

    At :12, with the car slowing and braking on the on-ramp, the victim should have been keen enough to zip around them.

    The brake lights are activated at :12-13, and two doors on the left side immediately open. This could be a warning and the only 1/2 second window to escape. It's in this 1/2 second the victim could floor the accelerator to merge and speed by, allowing for an option to take out the two passenger gunmen if/when the emerge at that exact moment. We have the benefit of examining the situation the victim did not in that fraction of a second.

    At :14, 3 men are in full view with handguns. Here the victim still has a chance to escape, by aiming the car directly at the left rear of the forward car, and clipping it to jar the entire vehicle and throw all of the robbers off balance and make the two on the left dive for cover. Hopefully the victim can clip and spin the car just enough to throw all of them off, while managing to keep his car from crashing while he merges at full speed. Hopefully the other drivers will allow his merger.

    At :15, the flight opportunities have all-but-vanished. He can still attempt the above maneuver, but will take fire from someone. He can easily take out the guy on the hood, and force the guy on the left to dodge, but all three will get high-probability shots off assuming their guns are loaded and they are trained.

    By :16, any defensive moves will lead to his immediate death by being shot repeatedly at point blank range by multiple assailants.

    Tactical and situational awareness, aggressive driving skills, and immediate access to a gun (all but useless in this instance as he's in no position for a sustained firefight because he's a fish in a barrel) are vital to survive in ever-growing parts of the world.

    I've taken a very good 5 day offensive/defensive driving and shooting school located in Florida called Gryphon Group Mobile Force Protection. They routinely train many DoD, 3 letter and 4 letter agencies, and private contractors. I learned there that a car can take a lot of abuse and keep running as long as it has a working engine, transmission and wheels. Light ramming at under 15mph (of a person or clipping another car) will do minor cosmetic damage and not interfere with the car's operation. Even if struck merging, you'd be hit from the rear or side, and as long as the victim can maintain control the car would be fully operational for at least distances that would put him in safety.

    I fear we here in the US will see a rise of these, along with IEDs and terrorist tactics in the future for a variety of reasons irrelevant to this conversation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  4. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    Maybe, but you have the luxury of knowing it was just a robbery. In the moment you wouldn't know if they were going to rob you or if they were going to saw your head off for the fish on your bumper.
     
  5. Matthew Temkin

    Matthew Temkin Member

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    In that case you would be a dead man no matter what you do.
     
  6. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Dunno about that. They may chicken out, fall apart when shocked by immediate and violent action, or just mess in their pants.

    But at the minimum, one can take a few of then with you.

    Deaf
     
  7. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    Lots of police (trained and effective weaponry) and the guy still drove away.

    I think you'd have a pretty good chance against untrained thugs who can't get a round in the chamber.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmY_6xzxpW4
     
  8. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Totally different. According to the article, the van was an armored van. Secondly, the police were retreating and/or firing from a significant distance at a target that was on the move for at least part of the shootout. It's no doubt that an armored fan at those distances would not result in a death or even a hit. (The article did say the man was killed by a police sniper later).

    In the SA video, multiple thugs have the drop on a boxed in victim, and they have their guns on him at point blank range while he's sitting in a presumably civilian unarmored car, which offers zero ballistic protection.
     
  9. Thutha

    Thutha Member

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    Hi Guy's

    I live in South Africa and have driven on that road on numerous occasions.

    Driving here is a lot different than in other parts of the world. We have minibus taxi's stopping right in front of you to off-load passengers with no other warning than switching on the hazard lights. The following space that you leave is there for another vehicle to push in.

    That on-ramp to the highway is very congested and the chance of moving left to pass the stopped vehicle is very remote. Compliance is also not advised as the criminals in South Africa is very violent and kill with no provocation on the victims part.

    We (South African Gun Community) train to fight back although there is still a lot of people in South Africa who will never own a firearm due to their own beliefs and values.

    I know of three people who survived violent attacks by fighting back. One guy was loading stuff out of his trunk with his wife, sister and 2 daughters looking on. Three guy's walked up to him and shot him twice in the stomach with no warning. He drew his own firearm and engaged them hitting two. The other one ran away.

    I have never had a situation like this and hope that i never do. However, I still carry my firearm and 2 extra mags and a couple of knives everyday. I am not Rambo but know the reality of where I live and the situations that can arise.

    20150422_171912_zpsasihjvxe.jpg
     
  10. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    One of those things you carry is statistically probably much more likely to kill you than the threats you are preparing for. Just saying.

    Full disclosure, i've been trying to quit for a loooong time.
     
  11. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Justin,

    I don't think South Africa has the same stats as you think they do.

    It ain't the USA.

    Deaf
     
  12. xXxplosive

    xXxplosive Member

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    Happens in Newark NJ every day.....it's why the NPD have cars stationed at the entrance and exit ramps to Routes 78 and 80 during rush hour traffic.......armed car jackings / robbery.....seriously. Like the young fella here who was shot and killed in front of his wife at the Short Hills Mall by multiples.
     
  13. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    I'm aware of that and suspect that cigarettes are statistically still far more likely to kill a person not habitually involved in criminal activity.
     
  14. Thutha

    Thutha Member

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    This is the reason we train constantly and practice situational awareness.
     
  15. Odd Job

    Odd Job Moderator Staff Member

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    I didn't know there was a Kydex holster for a Vektor CP1. Does it have a relief in front of the trigger guard? Or do you have it set to activate the safety upon reholstering?
     
  16. Morgo

    Morgo Member

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    Not much one could have done there, middle of the day and in traffic realistically no where to go. They chose a good spot.

    I've driven in South Africa, those saying leave a bigger gap or ram through when a car slows or stops in front of you, you likely haven't driven in SA.
    Leaving a bigger gap just means everyone else will cut in to get in front of you happens all the time (also not just in SA)
    The road rules, etiquette (or lack of) is completely different, people routinely drive at MUCH less (and faster) than the posted speed, cars are always breaking down (lots of cash strapped people with old and neglected vehicles) or just stopping on the road for various reasons which are considered quite normal there plus lots of bad drivers in general on the road.
     
  17. Thutha

    Thutha Member

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    The kydex holster was custom made for me by a guy in Pretoria and it does set the safety upon holstering.
     
  18. Odd Job

    Odd Job Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks.
    I also have a Vektor CP1 which is in storage in South Africa. I had to get a left hand mag release for it because I found that I was ejecting the magazine in stressful situations. Just the way I grip it (and won't change).
     
  19. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    The only possible win I can see in that situation is one in which you didn't get stopped so close to the bumper of the suspect vehicle, and were able to steer/accelerate out of it (possibly over a suspect). The odds of winning a gunfight are very slim in that situation, and if you were faced with making that decision you'd probably be better off considering compliance.
     
  20. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    That's probably wishful thinking. From the time the suspect's car stopped until they were at the victim driver's door looked to be only about two seconds. Action is always faster than reaction, and the driver was likely still in "drive" mode thinking that someone had just slammed their brakes. That's an awful lot of stimulus to both absorb and react to in that short amount of time, particularly when the victim would have no reason to be in condition red until something started to happen.

    The simple truth is that sometimes you're in a really bad spot. Driving out of that situation might have worked, might have been impossible, or might have at least drawn a lot of gunfire in the victim's direction. It's not smart to ignore the fact that sometimes you're just going to have to comply with the robbers if you want to live… that was probably the case in this instance.
     
  21. beatcop

    beatcop Member

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    If you live there, you likely will have a quicker reaction because it's "known".

    depends on vehicle
    who's in the car
    your gun


    -Left and gas is ok, but depends on a few things: do they want the now ruined car? Do you have something they want? Will they fire or just leave?

    -Sit and fight will be ugly unless an AK folder is put into action in 1 second.
     
  22. Morgo

    Morgo Member

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    Also don't forget the car is right hand drive, so trying to drive away means they could have pressed their handguns up against the glass on the drivers side as you tried. Quite literally point blank range.
     
  23. Drop45

    Drop45 Member

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    F-350 6" lift 2----bad guys 0. I hope.
     
  24. Glock Doctor

    Glock Doctor Member

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    Well, …… several thoughts come to mind:

    (1.) Every attack offers, at least, one action/reaction, ‘window of opportunity’. It usually coincides with and occurs at the exact moment the attack begins; or, more correctly, would begin. In this particular attack it occurs at the time interval between the brake lights coming on and the vehicle stopping, 'hard'; and the first (rear) door swinging open.

    (2.) In many vehicular attacks the very first weapon-at-hand is usually the vehicle, itself.

    (3.) In this attack the front and rear doors opened almost simultaneously; and the guns were glaringly obvious.

    (4.) All of the signs of an incipient physical attack are initially present. By the time the driver got to see the gloves he could have easily already been dead.

    (5.) Allowing the driver with a clearly displayed pistol to exit the attacking vehicle is the final critical mistake, and the beginning of the end.

    (6.) A properly trained (defensive) driver would have reacted quicker; and he would NOT have come to a stop so close to the offending vehicle. (If you can't see the tires of the vehicle in front of you then you're already in trouble!)

    (7.) There is no acceptable excuse for being, ‘asleep at the wheel’. It is the responsibility of the (defensive) driver, himself, and/or whoever’s, ‘riding shotgun’ to be constantly aware of the occupants riding in nearby vehicles, as well as how those surrounding vehicles are behaving. ('Crowding' is one of the first signs of danger!)

    (8.) The very first thing I would have noticed - and I would have noticed it - is that the attacking vehicle was incorrectly using its right turn signal. Hitting the brake lights and stopping hard immediately thereafter - Especially while my own vehicle was being boxed-in and held in place by that accompanying pickup truck - would have told me I was about to be attacked; and I would have reacted accordingly. No mystery here, only a heavy mental fog; or, perhaps, a complete lack of defensive driver training.

    (9.) By the way, this attack did NOT happen, ‘pretty fast’. I’ve spent a lot of time on the road; and while I was watching this video I could actually feel the attack coming; and I understood how it was about to unfold. Neither do I want to appear trite; but, the first rule of operating in a hostile environment is to, 'EXPECT THE ATTACK'. The very moment I realized the left lane was unavailable to me I would have immediately gone into, ‘fight or flight’ mode.

    (10.) It’s just like CQB pistol gunfighting: The combatant who doesn’t wait to verify, and acts first is often the one who wins. As an aside: It’s situations like this that encourage me to use FMJ ammunition in all of my guns. (Please spare me the, ‘armchair warrior’ responses - OK.)
     
  25. Thermactor

    Thermactor member

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    Thutha,

    Thank you for your input.
    I've been to Joburg once and had some interesting adventures. Ever have someone just randomly walk up to you and ask for a job? Also got my thrill seeking quota met being white and walking around the CBD at night. There's a reason the police walk around with automatic weapons and body armor. But I met some great people too and wont ever forget the experience.
    I hope to see more posts from you in the future.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2015
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