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Spainish m1916 MAuser 7.52 NATO vs 308 Win

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by mookiie, Dec 23, 2011.

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  1. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    I just got a Spanish m1916 Mauser chambered in 7.62 NATO. I was wondering if anyone has shot commercial 308 Winchester ammo through one with no ill effects. I know the 308 win commercial ammo is a little higher pressure than standard 7.62x51mm NATO, but will it be a problem with this rifle? Has anyone shot 308 commercial ammop through their m1916? I got Remington Core-lokt 180 gn rounds just not sure if they would be safe to fire?
     
  2. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    7.62nato and 308 ARE THE SAME PRESSURE.

    Aside from a slight headspace difference

    However your rifle was intended to shoot neither of these. Instead it was planned to fire the dimensionally identical long obsolete lower pressure 7.62 cetme.

    If it were me id only shoot reduced power handloads (think 307 win) Remington managed recoil ammo and even then I'd wear ansi approved eye protection religiously

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  3. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    I do not believe you are correct. Please refer to the below except from surplus rifles:


    "As with any military surplus, the rifle should be thoroughly safety checked. Double check caliber markings on weapons. Both 7x57 Mauser ammo and 7.62 NATO ammunition is available through numerous sources. Note that the 7.62 NATO cartridge is not the same as .308 Winchester commercial cartridge in terms of pressure ratings. Many shooters report using commercial .308 ammo with no ill effects, however REALLY, the weapons are marked for 7.62 ammo with max pressures of 49,700 psi CUP vs. 52,000 psi CUP. "
    from:
    http://207.36.233.89/1916guardiacivil/index.asp

    I am fairly certain this rifle is not chambered in cetme.
     
  4. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    NATO and 308 are the same. The difference is the military refers erroneously to cup as psi with no refrence to the actual difference betwixt the two pressure measuring systems.

    The real question is does shooting a 60,000psi + cartridge in a small ring Mauser action from wwI make you feel warm and fuzzy inside?

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  5. USSR

    USSR Member

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    R.W.Dale is correct. Two different methods of pressure measurement were done (SAAMI vs. Gov't), but the actual pressure is essentially the same.

    Don
     
  6. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I have read that the Spanish conversions came along after the 7.62 CETME was abandoned in favor of the standard 7.62 NATO. Therefore they were meant for use with standard ammunition. But not meant for MUCH use. They were for issue to border guards and line of support troops who would not do a lot of shooting but would free up the automatics for regular infantry.

    I doubt a box of commercial JSP is going to blow up your conversion.
    But Dale is right, any way you figure it, that is a heavier load than the rifle was built for.
    A regular .308 (or 7.62N) is 10-12% over 7x57 chamber pressure, which is what most +P loads are.

    I don't think the Army erroneously lists crusher pressures in psi.
    The Defense Department is not a member of SAAMI and does not necessarily recognize the definitions of CUP and (piezo) psi. They just continue the old procedure of calibrating crusher pellets with dead load or hydraulics calibrated in pounds per square inch.
    They don't care if it confuses the Internet Generation.
     
  7. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    so for reloads I am thinking of 40 gns of IMR 4064 and a 150 gn projectile. That should be within acceptable pressure correct?
     
  8. lonniemike

    lonniemike Member

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    Mookii, plenty of people shoot full power loads in their Spanishs. Plenty say don't.. The chances of a blow up are slim. But chances of headspace and lug set back issues could be in your future. In the 50's thru the 70's the Spanish used 7X57 and 7.62CETME.
    Jim, your thoughts have much merit. It is like the 1889 Swiss rifle in 7.5X53 using as a last ditch effort the GP-11 ammo(7.5X55) for which it wasn't designed for. The original(? G-1) CETME assault rifles would not handle 308 or NATO loads and I think it was the G-3 that does shoot NATO okay. I'd find it hard to believe that the Spanish(in the 60's) converted to a NATO chambering before they entered in the NATO accords in 1982. FWIW, I think the original CETME round was close to the 7.62X39 in power/energy. AlltheBest
     
  9. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Commercial 308 loads I wouldn't be too concerned about in the 1916 would be the new managed recoil rounds from rem and fed.

    Iirc surplusrifle.com had a write up on them awhile back

    Again only wearing proper ppe as these old guns don't handle a case rupture or pierced primer very well

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  10. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    How on earth did the shooting world start baseless rumors before the internet came along?

    Reading this thread: 7.62 NATO Pressure vs. commercial 308 Winchester should settle the ".308 vs. 7.62x51" arguement forever...at least in the minds of rationale people.

    When I got my first computer back in the '90's and found shooting forums, I had lots of people tell me that if I shot factory ammo or full power ammo in my FR-8, I would eventually blow it up probably maiming or killing myself. This because it was chambered for the 7.62 CETME blah, blah, blah... Well, almost 20 years later and God only knows how many full power handloads, my rifle and I are still in one piece.

    mookiie I have a 1916 like yours, except that I've modded it a bit:

    Finished.jpg

    Mine, on the underside of the barrel near the muzzle is stamped "308 Win." So far I've fired nothing but near max hunting loads in it and just like with my FR-8, we're both still in one piece.

    I have a buddy who's owned a 1916 .308 for 20+ years and I know all he's fired in it are commercial loads.

    Until someone who has firsthand destroyed one of these rifles makes himself known, I'll continue to shoot mine as I always have. Enjoy your rifles and don't listen to the hand wringing worry worts who don't have any direct experience with these rifles.

    35W
     
  11. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    I found an awsesome article on the exact question of this forum, apparently others asked the same questions as me so the importer samco had several rifle sent for test fireing with 55,000 psi 308 win loads and passed, they said they failed destructively at 98,000 psi. check it out it is a good read.

    http://masterton.us/Gammo[​IMG]


    35 Whelen - thanks for the info, I was hoping someone who owned one could give me their personal experience - Thanks!
    Thanks to everyone else who replied as well!
     
  12. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    With regards to 35w folks drive their autos every day unbelted and don't get in an accident maiming or killing themselves too. That doesn't mean not wearing a seatbelt is just as safe it merely means THEY haven't had an accident.

    Any way you care to argue it the fact remains that a 1916 is an OLD rifle and when chambered for 308 is firing a cartridges that exceeds any original chamberings pressure by several thousand psi.

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  13. lonniemike

    lonniemike Member

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    35 Whelen, Like I said, "plenty shoot full loads". I don't own a Spanish but I do know people in both the light/heavy camps. I thought the 1916 model would be a FR7 rifle type and the FR8 is for 98 type Spanish actions. And I still find it hard to believe the spanish arsenal stamped/restamped 308win or 762NATO on rifles being scrapped/musterred out of service/exported in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, or 90's. Would Century or someother arms dealer do it. You bet ya. AlltheBest
     
  14. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    R.W.Dale did you read the article I posted? 98,000 psi failure would be astronomically higher pressure than a commercial 308 load.
     
  15. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    So true. The basic problem is that these rifles were originally chambered in 7mm Mauser. The 308 operates at higher pressure.

    Given the plain carbon steels these actions were made out, the period which they were made (think primitive process controls) and the lack of safety margin in the things, shooting these old rifles has risk.

    I would not shoot loads that approximate modern 308 loads.


    http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6707989&postcount=10

     
  16. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Which assumes that every example shares the same metallurgy and history of their catastrophic single point test example.

    That doesn't mean that the combination of years of slight lug setback and a flawed case can't/won't combine to KILL YOU

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  17. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Not really, about a 2:1 safety margin. I can recall safety factors for man rated systems being 8:1 for pressure vessels and hydraulic equipment.
     
  18. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    R.W.Dale - would you suggest i unload the 180 grn win 308 Remington ammo and reload with IMR 4064 and a 150 grain projectile? How many grains of powder would you suggest I start at?
     
  19. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Just to be clear I'm not trying to be all fatalistic here. I've shot mausers older and weaker than yours. I just want you to understand these guns are OLD and don't enjoy the same uniformity of metallurgy we take for granted today. That if something goes awry it tends to be fast and ugly. IMO these guns can be safe and a joy to shoot, they're just not guns to take pressure risks with.

    I personally wouldn't shoot factory ammo (excluding managed recoil) in a 308 small ring. If you handload there's a plethora of pressure tested reduced 308 load data from manuals that's right up your alley

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  20. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    I think you and many others think the rifles were made in 1916. That date is the MODEL number, not the year of production. And like I said, mines stamped "308 Win.".

    If you have FIRST PERSON experience with the rifle in question being damaged by commercial loads, then I'll listen to you. Otherwise, what you state is nothing more than an uneducated opinion.

    I find it amazing that when presented with hard facts such as the referenced article, some people STILL insist on believing their assumptions.

    A crappy, weak action and bad headspace are two entirely different matters.

    As far as the age of the action is concerned, that's not a valid arguement. Take for example the Swedish Mauser. MAny were manufactured around the turn of the century, (I owned one that was made in 1902) yet these rifles were designed to fire high pressure rounds. If you don't believe me, check Norma's website and some of their loads.
    Likewise the Mosin Nagant. Many of these were made pre-1900 yet they fire the 7.62x54r that's anything but a low pressure round.

    Again, I'll eagerly listen to firsthand experience, but pay no attention to the stories of your uncles cousins buddies father-in-law who had problems with the rifle in question.

    35W
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  21. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    A crappy elweak action and bad heafspace ARE NOT two diffrrnt things!

    How exactly do you figure heafspace goes from good to bad? It does it from soft metal peening and flowing away from the bolt lugs point of contact slowly over time.

    I gotta ask 35 do you even own a set of headspace gauges?

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  22. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    yes my manuals list starting pressure loads at about 37,000 and 40,000 psi would this be a low enough pressure to use?
     
  23. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    Of course they are. You're ASSUMING bad headspace occurs ONLY with bolt lug setback. It also occurs when some knucklehead did a poor job of barreling the rifle.

    No I don't own a set of headspace gauges. Does this make me wrong and you right?

    Again, tell us your experiences with the Spanish 1916. I'm still waiting....

    35W
     
  24. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    I said from good to bad. Not starting out badly. If you didn't check your rifles when aquired and don't know what the headspace is NOW then your experience is no more valid than mine. You simply have no clue as to what you've done or not done by shooting full powered ammo. All you can add is I've gotten away with it for THIS long.

    I've owned several small ring Mausers from 1891's to a couple Swedes. Not once have I ever fired a cartridge that produced more pressure than originally intended. Because the fact of the matter remains Paul Mauser himself saw fit to incorporate several key safety improvements in his later designs as cartridge pressures increased from what his small ring design was proofed for. Do you know something about these actions Mr Mauser didn't?

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  25. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

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    My thoughts are that if you feel confident putting your face near a pre-'98 small ring action designed for a 51,000PSI cartridge, and firing a 62,000PSI cartridge, you certainly have that right.
    Throw in the fact of questionable metallurgy and heat treat stigma that Spanish Mausers carry, I would keep pressures to a reasonable level if I was foolish enough to own one.

    I have a M38 6.5 Swedish Mauser that is rated for the same pressures as the 1916 Guardia FR-7, and that's the max it gets fed when I do shoot it.

    Here's the link to the defunct surplusrifle site on the 1916 Guardia.

    http://207.36.233.89/1916guardiacivil/index.asp

    If you stick with the start loads listed in the manuals, you will be better off than shooting full house 308 Win loads.


    NCsmitty
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
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