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'Special bullets' killed Menezes

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by MartinBrody, Oct 15, 2007.

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  1. MartinBrody

    MartinBrody Member

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    Interesting article from the BBC educating their subjects about the fancy bullets their police use to deal with terrorists (or in this case an innocent man). Special bullets indeed.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7045122.stm

     
  2. average_shooter

    average_shooter Member

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    They shot an innocent man seven times in the head at point blank range... and they're bickering about what kind of bullets were used!?!?!:banghead:
     
  3. GTSteve03

    GTSteve03 Member

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    I'm sure the citizens of London can rest easy now that they know their protectors are using the latest high-tech weaponry to fight the scourge of terrorism. :rolleyes:
     
  4. FieroCDSP

    FieroCDSP Member

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    8 days of training per year to be able to use an HP loaded gun? I suppose that's better than a baton. Given the mistake identity, they should learn how to ID a suspect first, then shoot. And seven times to the head seems a bit excessive, but I wasn't there, so maybe the first five or six were not effective.
     
  5. Regolith

    Regolith Member

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    Is it just me or is this "expert" full of hot air? While HP's are generally more effective than FMJ's, they don't ever guarantee an immediate incapacitation.
     
  6. average_shooter

    average_shooter Member

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    They generally do when you put seven in someone's head.
     
  7. Regolith

    Regolith Member

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    Yeah, that will do it. But this guy is talking about them like they're a magic freaking bullet. Like Silver bullets to a werewolf or something.
     
  8. Zangetsu

    Zangetsu Member

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    If I had to guess, I'd say it was some type of "devastator" ammunition, which is a jacketed hollow point with the cavity filled with a type of impact sensitive explosive that does exactly what he was saying. "You need a bullet that dumps all its energy into the subject" and I they are actually advertised like this: "THE PROJECTILE CONTAINS A SPECIAL DETONATING COMPOUND THAT GREATLY INCREASES STOPPING POWER BY VIRTUALLY DELIVERING ALL THE KINETIC ENERGY INTO THE BODY. PRODUCES A WOUND CHANNEL 3-4 TIMES THE BULLET DIAMETER. WORKS WITH ANY FIREARM." And since they were 124 gr bullets, my money would be on 9mm. I know they article said that standard 9mm was "more powerful", but really, just how accurate has the news ever been when recording on anything firearm related?
     
  9. 2TransAms

    2TransAms Member

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    Shot in the head. Yeah. Now if it was me,I think the least of my concerns would be if that was a HP or FMJ that just entered my skull.

    I bet it was EXTreme Shock Fang Face ammo!
     
  10. SaMx

    SaMx Member

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    they said it's the stuff US air marshals use, which would mean .357 sig. Then they said standard 9mm was more powerful. Crazy. Either way, It's just JHPs, not magic bullets.
     
  11. pete f

    pete f Member

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    its political MSM jumbo speak trying to hide the real issue.

    If its the HST bullets that the Airmarshalls use, its every day off the shelf ammo.

    The kid got shot by mistake, it sucks, but it happens, and the guys who did it are as eaten up as anyone. let it go....
     
  12. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    Wow, what a complete and total fabrication... not unexpected at all.
     
  13. Zangetsu

    Zangetsu Member

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    Good thing guns in Europe are only in the hands of professionals so tragedies like this don't happen :rolleyes:
     
  14. Raph84

    Raph84 Member

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    In regards to the "innocent man" statements. IIRC this was a situation directly after the tube bombings. The individual shot had a bag similar to those used by the terrorists. The man did not obey orders to drop the bag and show his hands. The man attempted to move away but also, again IIRC, made a conspicuous movement with one of his hands toward the bag. This is what police knew when they made the decision to shoot. (a sensible decision if you assume an innocent man has no reason not to follow police instructions, and would obviously not make a conspicuous movement to touch the bag....unfortunately they did not have any way to know that the individual did not speak english and very likely reacted out of confusion). All parties made "innocent" mistakes that lead to a tragic accident that likely could not have been averted.

    This article just shows how little the media, and average guy on the street know about hollow point ammunition (sadly that lack of knowledge is not specific to europe, many here have similar misconceptions re: how HP's work, how common they are, and why they are used).
     
  15. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    The problem wasn't some officers misidentifying someone. Yes, mistakes like that do happen. This, however, was terminal institutional stupidity. Some genius in the UK government thought that shooting a potential suicide bomber would stop them from detonating their bomb.

    Three words: Dead Man Switch.

    Yep... by holding down what they thought was a suicide bomber and shooting point-blank into his head what they would have been doing with a real suicide bomber is... setting him off. They all would have died, and probably quite a few other people would have died or been injured.

    It's not just classic dead man switches. There are more active sensors which can easily be made. With a few off the shelf components you can trigger on loud noises and other things I'm not going to get into.

    They have a terminally stupid policy and they have released enough information about it that anyone with 2/5ths of a brain can use their tactics against them. Despite this they insist that the policy is correct and still in effect.
     
  16. woodybrighton

    woodybrighton member

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    he was never challenged (not a good idea if he was a suicide bomber:uhoh:) the whole thing was a cluster **** of unbelievably bad luck and wrong decisions. there were two teams of officers surveillance and fire arms neither were in immediate comms with each other. Charles looked like one of the suicide bombers RIP. ARMED officers thouyht they were dealing with a suicide bomber
     
  17. xsquidgator

    xsquidgator Member

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    A little off-topic, but our air marshals use 125JHPs? Don't they use frangible ammo like glasers?
     
  18. SaMx

    SaMx Member

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    nope, they use regular defensive ammo.
     
  19. Mr. Designer

    Mr. Designer Member

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    When are we going to get this high tech bullet here in the states?:)
     
  20. hopkin

    hopkin Member

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    At least they weren't using .50BMG. Those are designed to shoot down aircraft, you know. Oh yes.
     
  21. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    Well hopefully his heirs will be better off for it. He will be remembered by some, as a person who was at the wrong location at the right time. Seven??? Isn't that supposed to be a lucky number?
    In America if they did that it would really be on the air waves.

    ;)
     
  22. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    stuff happens.

    cops make mistakes like everyone else.

    mistakes and errors are part of being human.

    not much different than the air marshal that shot a guy in a terminal building. IIRC, the dead guy was diabetic or something and needed his meds.

    the common factor was that neither of the dead men responded in the way the cop expected, probably at least partly due to a language issue, and they are dead because of it. the cops involved were no doubt on a testosterone and adrenaline rush that made doing something more likely than doing nothing, and since they had guns in their hands, that something turned out to be pulling the trigger.

    i don't see how you can fault the cops in either case. they are not trained in mind reading. they had to decide to shoot or not to shoot with little or no information upon which to make a decision. that's really the only options they had.

    hopefully the bad PR will cause some rethinking to occur. but, what would any of you done differently given the same circumstances?
     
  23. Odd Job
    • Contributing Member

    Odd Job Can probably X-ray it

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    A couple of things to add:

    1) The man was killed by sloppy intelligence. When the order was given to stop him, that was his death sentence right there. I don't blame the police, especially in view of the fact that they were reeling from the 54 deaths caused by suicide bombers just prior to that event. If anyone is responsible it is the guys who gave the green light on the stop.

    2) Preliminary analysis of the first tube bombings indicated that it would be dangerous to shoot subsequent bombers COM because it may set off the explosives. I don't know anything about handgun rounds and various explosives but I can guarantee that the police would have had instructions on shot placement (where possible). Subsequent news reports leaked the headshot instruction and there was an uproar in the ranks of the sheeple at such a 'merciless and vicious' instruction.

    3) I had the opportunity of speaking to armed police at the hospital (they were guarding the victim of a drive-by shooting who was coincidentally shot outside the hospital). They were carrying MP5s and G17s. One of them showed me a spare loaded magazine and let me see one of the cartridges. It was a British Aerospace truncated round nose JSP. (In other words it was like an FMJ that had its nose cut off). This was before the London bombings and these were armed police, not necessarily involved in anti-terrorist operations. It sounds like they gave the units involved in the Stockwell shooting different ammunition.
     
  24. damien

    damien Member

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    If convicted, what is the penalty phase? Is this a lawsuit for money or what?
     
  25. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

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    "I don't know anything about handgun rounds and various explosives..."

    The peroxide type explosives being made are vary unstable and can explode during manufacture if allowed to overheat.
    Running a bullet through them would NOT be a good idea.
    They are barely hanging on in their existing form.
     
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