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Speed loading a single shot shotgun?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by MarsocDad45ACP, Oct 6, 2018.

  1. MarsocDad45ACP

    MarsocDad45ACP Member

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    Thank you for your advice sir. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of avoiding confrontations since I have had equipment that I need keep myself fed stolen multiple and the local law enforcement won't exactly leave a squad care posted here and it takes them over half an hour to get out to me generally.

    Obviously, I don't exactly go out there guns blazing. I know who these trash are and generally just the sight of me or a voice will send them running for the hills.
     
  2. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Nope, can't use a bolt or lever action either. They have discharged out of battery too. http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/151443-Tikka-discharged-out-of-battery
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/24/man-insane-battery-firing-savage-axis-can-happen/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lever-action-safety-issues.556304/
    A pump is supposed to do the same thing. It "won't" fire unless the bolt is all the way forward and locked in. Most of them do that just fine, same as most lever, bolt and semi auto firearms.
     
  3. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    I have a butt stock sleeve (just like post #13) on every shotgun I've been issued - and one on the only one I currently own (a basic riot model Remington 870) and they've never let me down. Each one has a life span of about five years before the elastic begins to fail.. You'll know it because you'll begin to lose ammo... Funny thing, I've never needed a speck of spare rounds since one shot is a definite fight ender... All of my five shot butt stock sleeves have been on pump guns (always an 870 - my preference). I know that most think that the more rounds going down range the better - but if that first one is on target that's all it will take (at least for that target...).

    Your alternative is to do what those old big game hunters did with single shots - keep two spare rounds in your support hand between your fingers as they hold the forend... Make your shot, break open the action to clear the spent shell than grab one of the two extras, load, and lock the shotgun for that second (or third shot...). Yes, it's slower that way than a pump or a semi auto but a shotgun will do the job every time if you do yours.... Re-loading when your adrenaline is pumping and it's all on the line... for that some practice is in order so you build up a routine that hopefully you'll follow on the day it's needed. Video I've seen of folks with single shots show that someone who practices can fire and re-load pretty quickly for that second shot...
     
  4. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Could get one of these.
     
  5. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Some old pump shotguns will chainfire as long as you keep the trigger back and keep pumping. Higher risk of firing out of battery in that case. Not sure if the old Noble design mentioned by OP was that sort or not but your examples were actually rifles--not shotguns.
     
  6. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Sorry to hear about your problems with thieves but both civil and criminal litigation can be a heavy cross to bear. People have lost their life, liberty, and property when things go wrong. Right or wrong, those using or threatening use of deadly force are held to a very high standard under the law, even on their own property.

    Understanding the legal issues involved in self defense is fortunately more available than it used to be. Andrew Branca's Law of Self Defense is a useful book as a general summary (https://www.amazon.com/Law-Self-Def...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=CFGREW81W3G76ZBSJMYW), Mas Ayoob's columns and recent book on self defense is also good (https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612). For particulars on a state's laws, Mitch Vilos's book on the self defense laws in each state is very useful particularly on jury instructions for states on such events https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/self-defense-laws-of-all-50-states-mitch-vilos/1021029063.

    Knowing the black letter of the law is not enough, you must know how the court has interpreted that law for juries. You might also take a look at the High Road's legal forum where a number of distinguished practitioners of law are present and legal matters around self defense issues are often discussed.
     
  7. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    I'm aware of that. Are you suggesting that no bolt action or lever action shotgun at any time in history has ever had an out of battery discharge? The OP has dismissed an entire action type based on one defective example, one that is well known to be a low quality, problem prone weapon. Like I said before, all of the different types of actions have failed at some point, in some way, including single shot break actions. It makes zero sense but apparently it's just something he does. He quit buying cars with automatic transmissions because an El Camino with one burnt up.
     
  8. MarsocDad45ACP

    MarsocDad45ACP Member

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    I'm nearly as old as my father was when he passed. I'm not overly concerned about the courts at this point. Regardless, I've never heard of anyone getting charged for walking their own property with a lowered firearm. I'm sure that is a fairly common thing in most of the country.

    Again I've called the police and there is very little they can do unless I get a license plate number, which I am pretty sure won't happen since I believe they are hiking out here. Thankfully, they don't come by often. But even if I didn't own a firearm I would head outside to make sure they didn't take anything. The only reason for my shotgun is in case they are on some new drug or showing off to their friends. There are very few break-ins around here because most everyone is too poor to really bother stealing from. It's mostly equipment the vagrants go after, since they think they can grab it and go. Unfortunately for them they make such a racket with the animals and knocking crap over that they rarely get away with anything of value.
     
  9. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    There is a crime called brandishing where an openly carried firearm creates a reasonable apprehension in others that you might use lethal force on them. It has happened that bad folks have actually called the law on the good folks claiming this very thing.

    Here is a brief Concealed Carry Association report dealing with this. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/brandishing-law/ Money quote, "In most states, it is a felony to exhibit a weapon in an angry or threatening manner. In the rest it is a misdemeanor with very unpleasant consequences. The term may not be specifically defined. It has usually been construed in cases involving threats, either general or specific. To be a crime, a weapon must actually be displayed. Obviously some people have a lower threshold for fear than others."

    A wise old guy and retired peace officer, Massad Ayoob has a number of tricks that he has used and wrote about to avoid this very thing when carrying a firearm. For example, when answering the door for an unknown caller, he might keep his firearm and drawing arm behind him so the caller could not see it.

    I would advise posting simple no trespassing signs though around your property in accordance to state and local laws if you have a problem. Gives you a bit more protection regarding the law as individuals have a harder time claiming "they just didn't know" if frequent signs are posted (or in some cases painted marks on trees depending on your law).

    We owned a farm and did not live on it. I can recite the litany of crimes and damage done to facilities over the years coming to thousands of dollars. The capper was when a doofus used our cutting torch to cut into an old safe--there were a few dollars in there for roadside sales which burned up, it also singed the property abstract and several other legal documents. What made the mess though was my father stored 12 gage shotgun shells in the safe which we used for driving off flocks of blackbirds. These went off and made an unholy mess in the farm's office. Apparently it scared the thief so much that they dropped the torch where it lay (fortunately not burning down the building) and fled most expeditiously. The next day, my father was so mad that he swore he would start keeping dynamite in the safe complete with a warning sign to cut into the safe at your own risk.

    BTW, game cameras are pretty good now about catching folks doing bad things on your property and these can be rotated around. Captures some interesting pix of animals if nothing else.
     
  10. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    No, simply that bolt actions and lever actions due to their design are less likely to do so than pump action or semi-autos due to their design. The French even made this into their manual of arms with their lebels, berthiers, and Mas 36's having no safety other than opening the bolt. Like most things in life, it comes down to probabilities rather than black or white.

    In my answers, I try to work within the O/P's question posed rather than my own preferences and arthritis is no joke to deal with in firearms. Fine movements become frustratingly difficult which means you have to rely on gross movements.

    FWIW, I would prefer a modern AR but then again I like Gen. Forrest's pronouncement to be the "fustest with the mostest" as a strategy if I HAD to confront someone which at this point would only be in my own self defense or that of loved ones.
     
  11. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    I must admit I am baffled by this thread. Not least because most break actions are fairly weak, and prone to fairly dangerous wear. Since they are weak and have unlimited feed length, it's easy to use inappropriately-long (and therefore: overly-powerful) shells for chamber and action strength.

    I have seen more odd, scary things with break actions than with any repeating arm. Including very sketchy lockup (lock levers gumming up, and barely latching) which if not observed could have allowed firing without full lockup. Yes, tested it and this example allowed firing without the locking being fully engaged, so it's an "out of battery" issue again.

    Sure, there are many very nice singles, and doubles (and drillings, et al) but just like the OP's wholesale rejection of pumps, turnbolts and presumably all self-loaders because one sometime went bad, an un-specified break action single to me is assumed to be old and sketchy.
     
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  12. George P

    George P Member

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    I agree.......
     
  13. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Actually he did specify it. A 12 ga. Winchester 37a.

     
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  14. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Of course. My point is that, based on what he's told us so far, if the OP had happened to have been one of the rare people to have an issue with a bolt or lever action, he would have refused to use one of those in the future as well. His problem just happened to have been with a pump.

    I know what you mean. I've had a number of students in our CHL class who have been dealing with arthritis. Definitely makes things more challenging. That's why things like attempting to speed load a single shot, which requires considerably more dexterity than using a pump gun, is perhaps not the greatest idea.
     
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  15. MarsocDad45ACP

    MarsocDad45ACP Member

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    Thanks, I will look into game cameras. Am not too interested in spending a fortune on them though.

    In my state at least, from speaking to an LEO this morning (who admittedly is not a lawyer), you cannot be charged for brandishing a firearm if self-defense would have been justifiable. A vagrant approaching your home on POSTED property in the middle of night is reason enough to assume there may be a possible need for self defense. However, I'm not a lawyer and assuming you're not either. I'd rather be charged with a misdemeanor and spend a day in court than have vagrants think they can steal from me. I do appreciate the warning however. Thankfully, I am blessed to live in a part of the country that hasn't completely given in to the "protect criminals at all costs" mentality, yet...
     
  16. MarsocDad45ACP

    MarsocDad45ACP Member

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    Personally, I find using a single shot much easier than a pump. Loading a pump is difficult for me with the spring pushing back at my thumb and I prefer to keep my weapons and ammo stored separately these days due to grandchildren and other visitors. Also small (likely user-induced) malfunctions with a pump would be difficult to clear for me. If I can still feed myself, I think I'm capable of putting a 12 gauge shell in a fairly generous chamber.
     
  17. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    I wasn't talking about just "using" a single shot. You asked about speed loading one, right? That procedure generally requires holding shells between the fingers while simultaneously operating one of the stiffest recoiling small arms in common use. If keeping a pump gun loaded doesn't work for you because of kids, maybe consider putting it in a safe? Or, better yet, skip the shotgun completely and get a mag fed weapon. Anyway, did you check out the video I posted earlier? If you insist upon using a single shot, the gloves shown in that video may help with loading faster.
     
  18. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Not a lawyer, but have a passing familiarity with the subject as I have taught it for a number of years in higher ed.

    Any of your big box sporting goods stores or somewhere like Wal Mart have game cameras including infrared see in the dark pictures with no flash and these are motion activated. Very good basic ones can be had well under $100 (with some around $50) and we are coming up on hunting season sales. These cameras can also be set to record short videos as well. Here are a few examples, https://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/game-cameras/4125_546956_4155_1079944_1080024
     
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  19. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Sounds like you had a S&W 916. They were known for blowing up. When I worked in a gun shop, someone tried to sell us one in mint condition. I told him I wouldn't even take it for free, and his best bet was to hang on to it until he heard of a gun buyback and get whatever they were trading for guns. He didn't believe me so I googled it and showed him. Even though those 916 guns are basically IED's, I have no fear of my Rem 870, Ithaca 37, or H&R partner. If you insist on using a crack-barrel, use the elastic sling like Armor Farmer said. It holds 5 rounds. Just practice with it.
     
  20. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Fastest way I know of to get off a second shot with a break open shot gun is for it to be an over/under or side by side. If you get one with two triggers it can even be simultaneous.

    I don’t know how much property you do have but I built these for hog control.

    EA64615C-FCAE-415D-83CA-05F22861BE8D.jpeg
    DAB910E4-C8D8-4A11-A0AD-389A756E16F4.jpeg

    The motion sensors I used have “pet lenses” so they won’t set off on little critters but work for larger ones, the radios are good for 2 miles (supposedly good for 5). The digital recorder plays back a prerecorded message (location where I put it).

    There are also cheap versions you can buy.

    https://www.smarthome.com/skylink-ha434rtl-household-alert-wireless-motion-alert-kit.html

    They say they are good for 800ft, if the transmitter and receiver are both in a clear line of sight that may be the case. I trust them to 300 ft with the receiver inside the house but that’s still 100 yards away. More time to get ready for the first shot would be more important to me than how quickly I could make another.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  21. Sovblocgunfan

    Sovblocgunfan Member

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    I’m liking an AR for this fella’s application and limitations.

    Shotgun-related solutions, with the limitations imposed, sound very much like complications waiting to happen.

    OP is asking about speed-loading a break-barrel gun when other solutions are available and so, so much easier for arthritic hands to manipulate.

    Game cameras yes! But to insist that, for arthritic hands defending a farm, a firearm that is a step above some gas pipe, a nail, rubber band and 2x4 is the only viable solution is a tough one to accept.
     
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  22. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    This seems to be a case of "old dogs don't want to learn new tricks". The OP has an odd sort of phobia that causes him to eliminate entire categories of machines based on a single bad experience. Until that phobia is addressed, he may just have to settle for a single shot slow loader. If he ever actually needs the weapon, that choice very well may prove to be a fatal one, but "you make your bed, you sleep in it" as it were.
     
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  23. Sovblocgunfan

    Sovblocgunfan Member

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    I think you might be right. That’s unfortunate.

    Not all pump guns are of the same ilk as those trashy s&w ones. I love pump shotguns-I’m a sucker for an abused one.

    Very well. If the only solution is a single shot break barrel then OP needs a sleeve and needs to fill fingers with shells. Practice, practice. I recall someone associated with Thunder Ranch teaching that we fight with what is in and on the shotgun. So need to become proficient with the cuff and with finger method. However, if the finger method is not workable due to arthritis, then the cuff is where it’s at. Shells should be mounted so the bases are pointed down. Shells with bases up require your hand to get in front of your face when you should be looking at the target. Bases down means you reach underneath to pull one. Replace the cuff when the elastic starts getting sketchy. Cuffs are cheap. Buy 3 or 4 so that you dont have to go to town for one when it starts failing.

    And by the way. OP said the gun has a full choke. If this is the only choice then consideration should be given for the load to be used. What is the plan for feeding it? Bird shot is for little birds...
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018 at 10:14 AM
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